Talking Michigan Transportation

Recruiting and training to build transportation infrastructure as a “Sansdemic” looms

October 21, 2021 Michigan Department of Transportation Season 3 Episode 77
Talking Michigan Transportation
Recruiting and training to build transportation infrastructure as a “Sansdemic” looms
Show Notes Transcript

This week on the Talking Michigan Transportation podcast, a conversation with two people deeply involved with recruiting, developing and training the infrastructure-building workforce.  

Even before the pandemic-induced phenomenon known as the Great Resignation, employers in many sectors were struggling to find and retain employees. This certainly applies to the skilled trades. 

First, James Fults, who manages MDOT’s workforce programs and recruitment unit, talks about efforts specific to department jobs. Later, Lee Graham, the executive director of the Labor-Management Education Committee for Operating Engineers 324 (OE324), who have been building in Michigan for more than 100 years, talks about their work. 

President Biden put a spotlight on the OE 324 training center when he visited earlier this month. 

Fults explains his unit’s work is mostly focused on five general job categories that have been challenging to fill: transportation maintenance workers, mid-level engineers, technicians, electricians, and surveyors. Acknowledging that the pandemic exacerbated a talent shortage that already existed, he attributes much of the problem to a dearth of younger workers to fill the jobs of retiring baby boomers, a phenomenon now knows as the Sansdemic.   

Fults also touts his unit’s other programs, including the Transportation Diversity Recruitment Program, highlighted in the July 28 podcast. 

Later, Graham talks about his organization’s years-long efforts in workforce development and training and the focus on expanding opportunities through programs like Access for All and the Detroit Regional Workforce Fund. 

Speaking about President Biden’s visit to the training center, Graham outlines why he thinks the bipartisan infrastructure legislation is so important to Michigan. 

Graham and OE 324 talk to students as young as kindergarteners to develop an interest in construction and modern building equipment and technology.  

Graham highlights the Operating Engineers work, on both sides of the border, to build the Gordie Howe International Bridge. He also talks about other high-profile structures, including stadiums, arenas, and downtown high rises, his members helped build. 

A stationary engineer offers a testimonial in this One OE 324 member profile video. 

Podcast photo: President Biden visited the Operating Engineers 324 training center in Livingston County on Oct. 5, 2021.

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Jeff Cranson: Welcome to the Talking Michigan Transportation podcast. I'm Jeff Cranson.

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Cranson: This week: the worker shortage. Even before the pandemic-induced phenomenon known as the Great Resignation, employers in many sectors were struggling to find and retain employees. This certainly applies to the skilled trades. I'll explore the topic and what's being done in terms of transportation infrastructure workforce. First, James Fults, who manages the Michigan Department of Transportation workforce programs and recruitment unit. Later, I'll speak with Lee Graham, who oversees and directs recruitment efforts for the Operating Engineers 324, who have been building in Michigan for more than 100 years.

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Cranson: So, once again, I’m with James Fults, who heads up the recruitment and workforce development unit at MDOT. And James, let's start with a little background on yourself and how you came to work in this area and came to MDOT.

James Fults: Yeah, great. Thanks for inviting me, Jeff. So, I started in state government about six years ago in the Department of Corrections as an employment counselor. There I would work with, you know, returning citizens as they're about to be released and try to find them employment. This is where I started working with employers. It was really my baptism by fire in workforce development. From there, I transitioned to the department of Labor and Economic Opportunity where I was a regional partnership manager covering the sector of mobility, which gave me an opportunity to engage with MDOT on a few projects. One of note is the Pilot Shortage Task Group through the Office of Aeronautics, where I worked with that team and some industry partners to really identify some root causes of the pilot shortage. In that industry and throughout all industries, there is a human being shortage, a number of people going into certain careers, and that one is no different. One of the other, you know, parts that I worked with was working with the Office of Business Development through their OJT program to provide awareness of that. That provides our contractors with some federally required workforce programs where they have to bring in a certain number of minorities, women, and economically disadvantaged individuals. So, I was working with them to make them connected to the Michigan Works! around the state. That really led to my connection with MDOT, and this position opened up. I think it was around December of 2020 when I interviewed and came on in January of 2020, two months before the work from home order.

Cranson: Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. You interviewed in December of 2019 and then started just when the pandemic really took hold. So, talk about, I mean, what you've seen in terms of what's created this and the fact that this really predates the pandemic, what was going on with the talent gap and the shortage across all sectors, but especially the skilled trades, you know, what you were already seeing?

Fults: Yeah, so, it's been described as the “Sansdemic.” There's just not enough individuals around 20, 30 years ago that were born to really meet the demand of individuals in the baby boomer generation that are now exiting the labor market. They're just not enough human beings to backfill them. And what we were advocating while I was at LEO is that the industry work together and really have a comprehensive marketing plan and engagement with all levels of the pipeline to make that smaller labor market aware of their career opportunities. That's what we're working on, you know, with different industries and my focus was mobility.

Cranson: Which was a great transition into what you're doing now.

Fults: Absolutely.

Cranson: So, talk about some of the challenges that we see. I mean, we know that, you know, most of us would want for our kids that they attend a four-year university. I mean, that just was kind of understood for a long time. And now we see people rethinking that, but it's difficult. We live in a state with some world-class public universities offering great educations, great resources. But there are some people, young men and women, who aren't necessarily interested in that and don't need that for the kind of work that you can do in the skilled trades and make a good living and find really satisfying work, you know, building things.

Fults: Yeah, so the State of Michigan has been working on awareness around skilled trades for a number of years because the labor market and information has shown, you know, the critical need for those positions. And you mentioned universities, what we see is the majority of, you know, good paying, life-sustaining jobs requires some level of post-secondary license credential, you know, some degree, not necessarily a bachelor's degree. And we're seeing that there's avenues to the different careers. Specifically, at MDOT, you know, to become a transportation maintenance worker, you'd need, you know, a commercial driver's license, or to become a technician, you need a two-year degree or some level of experience and education in the industry. There's different pathways that students need to be aware of just because the number of enrollment in some of those schools is low due to awareness and just understanding of how good of a career that they could have in the long term in different industries.

Cranson: Yeah, absolutely. Well, talk specifically, you know, to your job with MDOT and the kinds of jobs you're recruiting. And you've listed off some of the most challenging to fill, could you talk about what those are?

Fults: Yeah, absolutely. So, we know that we've got a list of five positions that, you know, our unit specifically spends a lot of time recruiting for, and those are our mid-level engineers, some with license, some without, our electrician, our transportation technician, our surveyor, and our seasonal maintenance workers.

Cranson: What is it about those jobs? Do you think that they're in a not-so-sweet spot, basically?

Fults: Yeah, again, it comes back to the number of individuals in those schools. When I mentioned licensed engineers or mid-level engineers, the people with that experience level is very small, and they're very sought after in the market. I’ve heard a statistic that .003 of the U.S. population has that professional engineering license, and a majority of them work at, you know, places like SpaceX or NASA. And it's really hard to draw them into a position like, you know, an engineer here at MDOT.

Cranson: So—oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead and finish that thought.

Fults: Oh, I’m just going to move through the list. The electrician, we know that it's a very small pool of around 20,000 licensed engineers in the state. That is our pool to draw from for those positions. For our surveyors, I think I’ve mentioned in a few meetings, is the most glaring with 817 licensed surveyors in the state. It's challenging, and then with the CDL holder for the TMWs, it's finding people to cross industry and come over to us to do that type of work.

Cranson: Talk about a CDL and what that is exactly.

Fults: So, a commercial driver's license, for our seasonal workers, we require a group B, which is the first step in getting your CDL. For our permanent positions, we require a group A and prefer an N and X endorsement. So, those are just additional endorsements for air brakes and different materials that they're allowed to carry.

Cranson: So, back to that education issue for a minute. I know you've talked about that post-secondary credential of some kind. And I have a friend on the Grand Rapids Community College board, and it's really come to our attention, easy to recognize the last few years, that community colleges and apprentice programs and other kind of training are just, like, more vital than they've ever been. Does that just go back to the demographic question you raised?

Fults: Yeah, it's a large part of it. There's a smaller pool of individuals going into different degree fields and having the ability to train somebody entry level. We just recently had a career fair where this number was kind of brought out. There were a lot of people very interested to work at MDOT, but when we look, you know, at their credentials there was a mismatch. So, there's an interest overall to work in this industry. It's just an awareness piece of how do you make one step to the next and get the right credentials to make you qualified for those positions? MDOT is looking at the apprenticeship model. We've got a lot of reasons why, but the major reasons are a knowledge transfer of our current employees to new employees and the fact that there's just not enough people in the labor market with the requirements for those critical positions that I mentioned.

Cranson: And, you know, this has been a problem more so in recent years, but probably exacerbated by everything else that we're talking about is the challenge of competing in government versus private industry to fill these jobs, right?

Fults: It is a challenge, but some of the things that we offer, you know, it's kind of that the work life balance. We're starting to offer more flexibility. The pandemic has brought that about in some of our positions where we're allowed, you know, to work from home. At this moment, you know, with the pandemic situation going on, we're looking to see how that flexibility continues into the future. Being able to offer that as well as, you know, one of the less talked about benefits that I think is a real selling point now is the parental leave. We offer 12 weeks parentally for mother or father of a natural born or adopted child, so that's a huge benefit that not every organization offers.

Cranson: That is a huge benefit. That's very forward-thinking and very kind from a human standpoint. So, talk about some of the partners. I mean, you inherited some programs and they've kind of been folded under your umbrella, and I know you're a great champion of the Transportation Diversity Recruitment Program, for instance, some of the others, and, you know, working with some industry partners who have jumped into it recognize the value that it brings to them too.

Fults: Yeah, so looking from the outside in, seeing all of these programs, MDOT had all the right parts to really build our own pipeline and has done a very good job of doing it, you know, starting with our youth programs, the Transportation Civil Engineering Program, our Youth Development Mentoring Program, which offers a work experience in every region of the state for 16 to 18-year-olds, and then moving up into our traditional internship, previously called Co-op, having that summer experience in between going to school. And one of the programs that's really been vital to ensuring that we're diversifying our department is the Transportation Diversity Recruitment Program. That program allows our staff to go out to historically Black colleges and universities and recruit from ABET accredited civil engineering programs to bring exposure to one, Michigan, and two, the industry transportation. Starting eight years ago, we started with about four interns, and we've grown to this last year to 59, and about half of that was with our industry partners through ACEC. Of that, there were 18 different organizations that sponsored interns for the summer.

Cranson: Yeah, I was really glad to be there for the culmination of the program this year and meet some of the kids and the Lieutenant Governor was there and Ron Brenke from ACEC, which you mentioned, was there, and it was just a really good day. So, I guess one of the things I’m wondering is if we're seeing, you know, these retirements and these jobs opening up and people that are looking for second careers, the pandemic has made them, you know, pause and take time just to rethink things in general, do you think ultimately when some of those people decide to get back into the workforce that they'll be taking a look at these kinds of jobs and, you know, the kind of training that they can get to, you know, make a career change?

Fults: I do, and I think, you know, it's really in line with the governor's initiative of the 60 by 30 where, as a state, we're hoping to get 60% of our population some level of post-secondary credential by 2030. This is a great opportunity for those who have left the labor market and the service industry to look at our industry as an opportunity, and maybe have some of those, you know, programs that would afford free community college or free programs for credentialing for them to go into this industry. I would hope that there's some opportunity there we're definitely going to promote what we have available.

Cranson: Well, I think--I hope so too. That's a good place to wrap it up. And I appreciate it, again, and really appreciate all you're doing. I know it's challenging, but it sounds like it's rewarding for you and for all the people that work in your unit. Is there anything else that you'd want to mention?

Fults: I just want to mention that we've got a great team. The majority of our unit are long-term MDOTers who have come from the different areas of the department that bring a wealth of experience, a wealth of connection to communities and to universities. And it's created a better alignment for us all to be together focusing on, you know, specific metrics of how we transfer people through programs and focus on what is the critical need of the department to move the program forward, you know, in a given year or into the future.

Cranson: Yeah, well said. Thanks again, and speaking of those industry partners we talked about, I’ll be back in just a minute with Lee Graham of the Operating Engineers here in Michigan. Thank you again, James.

Fults: Thank you, Jeff.

Cranson: Stay with us. We'll have more on the other side of this important message.

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Narrator: The Michigan Department of Transportation reminds you that when a vehicle collides with another vehicle, person or other object, it is a crash, not an accident. By reducing human error, we can prevent crashes and rebuild Michigan roads safely.

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Cranson: So, as promised, I’m back for the second half, and I’m with Lee Graham, who oversees recruiting and training efforts for Operating Engineers 324, which has more than 100 years of experience building here in Michigan. Lee, to start with, could you just talk a little bit about the history of the Operators and the kind of work that they do and the kinds of jobs that they train for?

Lee Graham: Yeah, I’d be honored to. Thanks for having us, Jeff. We build, we operate, we maintain. That's our motto. The members of the Operating Engineers 324 have kept Michigan onward and upward, you know, for a century. With over 14,000 members, OE324 operate heavy machinery that propels construction on the roads, the bridges, the buildings, energy plants, pipelines, airports, and nearly every large-scale project in the state. Our highly skilled members operate cranes, dozers, trucks, excavators, and countless other equipment that is propelling us into the future. We are also on the forefront of technology. When you look at the opportunity of operating the next generation tools like robotic and remote-controlled machines, drones, spider cranes, similar alike. The Operating Engineers 324 also represent the highly skilled stationary engineers who operate complex boiler and HVAC systems and also train technicians who fix and repair the equipment and keep down time to a minimum in the fields and also in our shops.

Cranson: So, pretty much anything that you see on a road project, any big, heavy piece of machinery is probably being operated by one of your folks?

Graham: We have a lot of members out in the field, absolutely, that are building and rebuilding every day, so yes sir.

Cranson: Well, a couple weeks ago, President Biden visited Michigan and chose your training center as a place to really highlight and draw attention to the work you guys are doing, especially in the training area. So, talk first about what it meant to have the President there and, you know, showing the facility and, you know, what it means to the program.

Graham: Yeah, we truly--as OE324 and our industry and all our partners, we're super honored to be visited by President Biden. He is out, you know, raising awareness and support, you know, for his plan to invest in infrastructure. And we certainly are proud, you know, that he chose our training center to visit, you know, and see what it takes to work on these infrastructure projects alone. Our training center in Howell is 560 acres, self-funded, year-round career center where we're teaching the safest techniques and the newest technologies. So, by visiting our site, the President got to see not only the massive million-dollar cranes, dozers, excavators, and other equipment we train on daily, but also the simulators, you know, today's latest technology and our outreach that we do with the students and the schools for future operators. The drones, the autonomic equipment, you know, that propels these careers well into the future of what we were talking about earlier. And his plan is an opportunity for the country to invest in itself the way our site is a testament to why unionized skilled trades invest in themselves.

Cranson: So, we know that there are studies, recently I’ve seen, that say that there's like six million skilled positions unfilled in the country, and an estimated 10 million millennials with the necessary skills available to replace the surge of baby boomers retiring the next few years. And we know that's going to be more. They call it the Sansdemic. So, talk about how the operators are focused on this reality even before the pandemic.

Graham: Be glad to. We've been putting outstanding resources into all of our outreach and recruitment for many years now because we know two key things. We know that the state and the country have serious infrastructure needs in the work and the workers. To be actually necessary to compete, you know, it'll have to have a lifelong sustainable career well into the future. And we know that there's great opportunities in the skilled trades for rewarding work and families supporting wages in these careers because of that we have constantly looked for new ways to engage future operating engineers. We use the model that we call identify, attract, and retain. By greater exposure to these careers, we have greater chance to inspire an interest in what we do. That means outreach more students and more communities, especially those that have been underserved in the past. Once someone is interested in what we do, we explain that we need to build, you know, a career into our field, what they can expect, and how they can succeed. So, retention is the final part. Once an operating engineer has experienced the job site and stated, you know, the opportunity with their education, it's our job to give them the support to keep them engaged and successful. These are the, you know, reasons that we have more apprentices, you know, in our Earn and Learn, you know, DOL registered apprenticeship program than any other time in our history. So, it's been truly amazing to come where we, you know, have been and currently where we're at today, so—

Cranson: Well, so I know that, you know, given the reality of things that people are pursuing second careers and, you know, some people are changing careers post another job or school, but what age do you really start trying to do your outreach and target potential workers?

Graham: Well, what's exciting is that, you know, they always ask at what age just like what you're sharing there, and we've had, you know, recently over here the latest years we've been able to do some kindergarten through fifth grade, which people are saying, “What?” And that's what's been exciting because there's different groups, like if you look at Frankenmuth List Elementary School and different innovators in and around stem, where we're able to bring in the simulators next to, you know, the veterinarian and the police officer at that early age. I mean, the kids are truly enthralled, you know, with the opportunity of something like that, you know, in today's world. So, our key to our recruitment efforts is diversity of all efforts. We work to get our message out to cast as wide net as possible. We have some presence at dozens of career fairs, you know, events for middle and high schoolers throughout the state. We partner with the pre-apprenticeship programs like Access for All and Detroit Workforce of the Future to create a path, you know, for many traditionally underserved communities into our trade. We've been truly proud of that with a lot of partners that have made that successful. We work extensively with our counselors, administrators, education professionals to let them know all about these careers and work with them to better introduce the possibilities to their students. So, we join with organizations like the National Association of Women in Construction, Project Accelerate to bring more women into the trades. We create materials to better engage students like our excavator simulator app students can download or the many videos and actual simulators we bring to the career events. So, our crown jewel is the two-day Michigan Construction Career days we hold in May that MDOT and all the different partners are part of where 3,000 plus students, 7th to 12th graders, come to the training center with all the trades and the colleges, universities, different employers are out there with a hands-on experience. So, it's the largest construction career days in the state. So, our goal is to reach as many different opportunities and different ways with the communities as possible. Our careers truly are for everyone just to, you know, be able to outline that.

Cranson: So, when you talk about kindergarten through fifth grade, are these kids already playing with drones and, you know, programming bots, or are they at least still spending time with Tonka toys?

Graham: Yeah, they've got Tonka toys, but, like you said, with the iPads and the Xbox controllers. And we ended up bringing up the simulators, and truly, I think there was 14 girls in a line to get on that excavator simulator. And every single one of them you talk about, you know, being able to explain to them what the opportunity does in our industry, and they're in the seat and you share with them the next thing you know they're following every direction that you took as smooth as possible. You know what I mean? And it's like sometimes you get the boys in there and they want to be jerky, whatever with the controls and, you know, not even listening. But it's very important that we continue with our contractors and our different partners to be at these different school events at that early age. And that's why we're proud, you know, because some individuals or our employers’ approaches are, you know, “We got to get those seniors.” And it's like well, you know, we're all the way down to kindergarten, fifth grade, you know, with opportunities, so—

Cranson: Yeah, when you say smooth as possible, I know exactly what you're talking about because my grandfather was an operator and operated a backhoe, and I worked in the summers during college with him. And the idea that he could bring that that bucket down, you know, within inches of your toe was just incredible, and trust me, I could never do it. It's interesting about the girls though.

Graham: Oh, truly and just, you know, what we shared earlier, just our partners that we've been able to work with over these years and watch our numbers continue to grow, you know, with those opportunities is just truly amazing, so we're very proud.

Cranson: Are you guys finding, you know, some opportunities with the Gordie Howe International Bridge?

Graham: Yeah, very much so. A couple weeks ago we had our safety week down there and super proud of the progression. You look across the waters and see our international brotherhood over there on that side, so it's, you know, an opportunity and a race to the center of the water there. But truly, the part that we're really proud of is the community that was impacted there. We've been able to work with Access for All with our pre-apprenticeship program and have opportunities, of course, right there in their community. So, the biggest thing about it is we've seen more apprentices on that project and BNA and the whole team there has taken a high initiative to make sure that today's youth is getting in and around these journey persons and being able to build cool projects like that. And we always brag the fact that, you know, you're going to be able to drive over, you're going to be able to walk over, and you're going to be able to ride a bike over, and that's pretty phenomenal for Michigan to land something like that.

Cranson: Yeah, it is. And since you mentioned safety, obviously, you know, emphasis on safety is a high priority for you guys in terms of the workers and learning to work safely, but you've also faced, your folks in the road like road workers everywhere, you know, phenomenal speeds since the pandemic started. And I think a lot of that's continued, and the crash rates are still high. And, you know, it just seems like there's not enough we can do to put the focus on that kind of safety and work zones. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Graham: Yeah, I think one of the important things is just the education in and around the construction sites being live sites. Like you mentioned, the motorist, the students even in drivers training not being able to go through work zones like that and be more educated. So, we have initiatives, you know, as ourselves and industry, you know, MDOT and a lot of the contractors are looking at best practices from across different states. But the most important thing is ensuring the fact that, you know, going forward that the men and women are able to go home to their families. So, they're looking at some new changes, especially with the heightened distracted driving. One of the most recent opportunities was with some of the legislators and our partners to be able to go down on some of these projects and stand, you know, 24 inches away from live cars going through, so that's what it takes. It takes us as an industry to educate all the others, you know, that want to learn and know about this so we can, you know, have safe projects. That is the number one thing, just like you mentioned.

Cranson: Yeah.

Graham:  The most important, Jeff.

Cranson: We'll continue to underscore it too. So, lastly, just talk about, you know, your recruiting efforts and job satisfaction is a selling point. I found a survey in my research from September that said, like, 83% of trades people are satisfied in their work, but that's still a challenge to find the people to fill those jobs. So, what do you hear from your members?

Graham: Well, the good thing is even when you talk to the members the fact that, you know, whether they have three years, 13 years, 33 years, you're able to get in front of different groups, whether it's K-12 or different industries and such, they're always telling different stories, you know, personally of different projects that they helped build and stand up, and some of our iconic projects, whether it be Little Caesars Arena or some of the latest stadiums in just the schools and just the colleges alone. So, what's really neat is that, you know, they get to share that of how many hours that they put in on a project, or how long this one took to build, and how proud they are of building these buildings, you know, downtown Ann Arbor that is on their way of the of cure cancer. So, with our generation, it's truly important with the hoisting and portable out there on the construction, but then also the places with our stationery engineers that work at, you know, the federal buildings and the schools and also facilities that are state-of-the-art like Little Caesars Arena. So, satisfaction, very proud, we say OE324 proud, you know, but we continue to get all those stories shared out there, Jeff.

Cranson: So, I think it's safe to say that your members, many of them, have left a thumbprint on the skylines across the state, and that's pretty cool.

Graham: Very much, so kind of like Comerica Park, you see the tigers up on top, right? They're like 22 feet in height. You wouldn't know that from sitting way up there where their eyes light up, but the operator that actually lifted them off the truck that was coming down the freeway, you know, pulled in and got to set those. I mean, just different examples like that where you've been a big part of a project is always coming out from the members, you know, what you're hearing anyway.

Cranson: Yeah, what a cool thing to go to a game and, you know, tell your son or daughter that you had a part in that. That's cool.

Graham: Yeah.

Cranson: Well, thanks, Lee. Is there anything else you want to add to this?

Graham: Yeah, I want to share just a couple more items here. We are all aware of the need, you know, for infrastructure right now, you know, the roads and the bridges that we drive our families, you know, that we are traveling on, the energy that heats and cools our homes, the drinking water we depend on are all provided by infrastructure. So, our members are the ones building that infrastructure. So, we are building, you know, these roads and bridges, and we are doing it safely and efficiently and effectively. And we are putting in the pipelines to deliver water to drink and the natural gas to heat. So, we are building the power plants and the wind turbines that make this a better state and a better place to live. So, when we talk about projects and we talk about infrastructure and we talk about launching economic opportunities here in Michigan, those are the exact projects that we want to keep seeing moving forward stronger.

Cranson: Yeah, well, I’m really glad you put an emphasis on that. I’ve been focused on our need to invest, or reinvest, in our roads and bridges and other infrastructure for years. And the fight goes on, but I really appreciate the way you put that. So, thanks again, Lee, for doing this. I really appreciate it. Keep up the good work.

Graham: Yeah, we're super honored. And thank you, Jeff, for having OE324 on.

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Cranson: Thank you again for listening to this week's edition of the Talking Michigan Transportation podcast. I would like to thank Randy Debler and Corey Petee for engineering this week's podcast. To subscribe to show notes and more, go to Apple podcasts and search for Talking Michigan Transportation.