On this week’s Talking Michigan Transportation podcast, a conversation about the success of efforts by the Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) to attract pollinators with roadside sunflowers and other vegetation.
Amanda Novak, a resource specialist in MDOT’s Bay Region, talks about the origins and successes of MDOT’s pollinator program and how the experience of other state departments of transportation (DOT), including North Carolina, inspired the program.
Novak talks about MDOT’s efforts planting sunflowers, dubbed pollinator superheroes, along state highways.
From a 2015 issue of “The Scenic Route,” a publication of the Lady Bird Johnson Wildflower Center at the University of Texas:
The alarming loss of habitat over the past two decades has left untold millions of bees, butterflies, and other wild pollinators hungry and homeless. The small creatures on which we depend for a significant portion of our food supply have hardly been without their champions; public support for monarch butterflies alone has been estimated in the billions of dollars. Still, the pollinator prognosis remained dire. But over the past 18 months, support for pollinators has undergone a seismic shift, led by President Obama, who called for a national Pollinator Task Force in the spring of 2014. Less than a year later, in a book-length “Strategy to Protect the Health of Honey Bees and Other Pollinators,” the federal government set ambitious goals that include the restoration or enhancement of 7 million acres of land for pollinator habitat over the next five years. Roadsides will comprise a significant portion of that acreage.
Novak also talks about “Show Stopper” wildflowers to be planted at the Port Huron and Coldwater welcome centers. This is a trial year for us to see how the seed does.
A second segment reprises a 2021 conversation with Margaret Barondess, manager of MDOT’s Environmental Section, explaining the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) and how it informs Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) and DOT decision making.
On this week’s Talking Michigan Transportation podcast, a conversation about the success of efforts by the Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) to attract pollinators with roadside sunflowers and other vegetation.
Amanda Novak, a resource specialist in MDOT’s Bay Region, talks about the origins and successes of MDOT’s pollinator program and how the experience of other state departments of transportation (DOT), including North Carolina, inspired the program.
Novak talks about MDOT’s efforts planting sunflowers, dubbed pollinator superheroes, along state highways.
From a 2015 issue of “The Scenic Route,” a publication of the Lady Bird Johnson Wildflower Center at the University of Texas:
The alarming loss of habitat over the past two decades has left untold millions of bees, butterflies, and other wild pollinators hungry and homeless. The small creatures on which we depend for a significant portion of our food supply have hardly been without their champions; public support for monarch butterflies alone has been estimated in the billions of dollars. Still, the pollinator prognosis remained dire. But over the past 18 months, support for pollinators has undergone a seismic shift, led by President Obama, who called for a national Pollinator Task Force in the spring of 2014. Less than a year later, in a book-length “Strategy to Protect the Health of Honey Bees and Other Pollinators,” the federal government set ambitious goals that include the restoration or enhancement of 7 million acres of land for pollinator habitat over the next five years. Roadsides will comprise a significant portion of that acreage.
Novak also talks about “Show Stopper” wildflowers to be planted at the Port Huron and Coldwater welcome centers. This is a trial year for us to see how the seed does.
A second segment reprises a 2021 conversation with Margaret Barondess, manager of MDOT’s Environmental Section, explaining the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) and how it informs Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) and DOT decision making.
Hello. Welcome to the Talking Michigan Transportation podcast.
Jeff Cranson:I'm your host, Jeff Cranson. Today in a special Earth Week episode, I'm going to be speaking with Amanda Novak who is a resource specialist for the Bay region at the Michigan Department of Transportation. She's done some really good and creative things with pollinators and helping to create habitat especially with sunflowers. I want to set this up by reading something from the Scenic Route, which is a publication of the Lady Bird Johnson Wildflower Center. In 2015, the alarming loss of habitat over past two decades has left untold mains of bees, butterflies, and other wild pollinators hungry and homeless. The small creatures on which we depend for a significant portion of our food supply have hardly been without their champions. Public support for monarch butterflies alone has been estimated in the billions of dollars. Still, the pollinator prognosis remained dire but over the past eighteen months, support for pollinators has undergone a seismic shift led by president Obama who called for a national pollinator task force in the spring of 2014 less than a year later in a book length strategy to protect the health of honeybees and other pollinators the federal government set ambitious goals that include the restoration or enhancement of seven million acres of land for pollinator habitat over the next five years. This last part brings us to what we're going to talk about today. Road sides will comprise a significant portion of that acreage. So Amanda, welcome and thank you for taking time to be here.
Amanda Novak:Yes. Thanks for having me, Jeff.
Jeff Cranson:So talk first about why sunflowers are considered pollinator superheroes?
Amanda Novak:Well, for us, we started this back in 2015. We had come across some postcards put out by North Carolina DOT. And they were just pictures of these beautiful roadside flower plantings that they had done. And so we kinda looked through them and were trying to decide what we could do here in Michigan and replicate. And we decided we thought sun flowers would be a great fit because they can tolerate our climate and they're planted here in the state. And they can pretty much grow anywhere. And our railway road conditions are a little bit difficult at times. And then I would say after the first year of planting and seeing the sheer number of bees and other pollinators in our plots, we made a good choice.
Jeff Cranson:Yeah. Definitely. Very good choice. You know, people are familiar with sunflower. They see them and, you know, might think that they're beautiful. But I don't know that most of us really think about the abundant sources of power and nectar. In my reading, over the years as MDOT has gotten into this. I've come to understand that they're considered among the top pollinators. Can you talk about the locations and how you figure out and identify the best place for them?
Amanda Novak:Sure. We initially selected them we wanted kind of large areas that could be planted all at one time with easy access, So we look at equipment access, we look at site conditions, we don't want too highly compacted soils, and that can be a little bit challenging in the right of way as well. So, our planting locations as of now work very well. The medians tend to have a little bit better soil too, so those are working out very well for us. But we basically just selected the initial plots based on space and I guess logistically, the plantings are located a little bit closer to each other just so we can get them kind of all in the ground at the same time.
Jeff Cranson:What are you and the the crews who actually prep these things need to do once you've determined that it's a good location?
Amanda Novak:For a brand new plot, the first thing we do is mow the existing vegetation, and we also have to do some surface roughening as well to prepare the soil and to break up that fat or grass heavy grass layer. And once we do that, we generally herbicide the area. And then we plant right after the herbicide takes effect, which is generally speaking, like, ten to fourteen days, then we plant and fertilize at the same time.
Jeff Cranson:Were you a gardener before you got into this?
Amanda Novak:I was not. No.
Jeff Cranson:So you learned a lot.
Amanda Novak:I have learned a lot through this process. And, also in our region, we've been fortunate to work with the MSU Extension Master Gardner program. And so they've taught me some really great things in our rest areas as well about gardening and responsible horticulture work that they like to communicate to our public visitors.
Jeff Cranson:Yeah. And I know we have some displays specifically at the rest area on I-69 in Shiawasee County that kind of explains what we do. Do you find yourself fielding more questions as people learn about this and want to know more?
Amanda Novak:I do. Yes. So I try to educate myself and especially frequently ask questions. But yes, they do ask often. But we happily share this information with the other regions. And we are going to be expanding statewide again both in Grand Region and Southwest Region this year.
Jeff Cranson:Is there any part of Michigan that would be more difficult than others or, I mean, obviously, the season's a little shorter as we go north, but overall, this could be done anywhere in the state. Right?
Amanda Novak:You can adjust your seed species in kind of length of time for germination and those kinds of things too. So you know, I think those could be adjusted in other areas.
Jeff Cranson:So when we go back to prepping and getting ready to plant, I know they talk about how to treat what they call non selective herbicides a couple of weeks prior to that. How do you balance that non selective obviously shows that you're being careful. But, the whole idea is to encourage growth and support the ecosystem. So how do you figure that out?
Amanda Novak:Well, our non selective herbicide we use doesn't have any soil residuals, so it's literally just gonna kill the vegetation at that time. It doesn't prevent regrowth of any existing vegetation.
Jeff Cranson:And what kind of equipment do you use?
Amanda Novak:We use a variety of equipment. We have put sprayers on the back of tractors. We have some side by sides that also are fitted with little spring tanks and a pump. So, it really depends on the state conditions and the size of the plot.
Jeff Cranson:So once you've kind of figured all that out and you've done everything and got it ready and you put it in the seeds, how long does it take to to see some flowers come to fruition?
Amanda Novak:We have changed our seed many times. So I would have to look at the germination rates for this year and then the length of time it'll take before they flower.
Jeff Cranson:Yeah. Well, we can include that in the show notes for people that really wanna get into it.
Amanda Novak:Okay.
Jeff Cranson:Yeah. But talk about the benefits, you know, that the lead in from the Wildflower magazine and it's got to be really rewarding seeing, you know, what you're doing to encourage these really important species to thrive again.
Amanda Novak:Yes. I think even in the planning process and the research that I did, I underestimated how the magnitude of what these plots would do. I remember the first year I went out there to look at them when they were in full bloom. I was shocked at the number of bees. I mean, the buzzing in the plots is crazy, and it's amazing. And then, again, there's other species that are utilizing in the plots. There's small mammals in there, generally speaking. There's a lot of different bird species that are in there. It's quite breathtaking.
Jeff Cranson:Yeah. That's cool. What what kind of small mammals make their way in there are you talking about?
Amanda Novak:A lot of rabbits.
Jeff Cranson:Yes. Oh, rabbits. Yeah. That makes sense. Sure. Yeah.
Amanda Novak:A lot of rabbits. You generally flush at least five to ten out of there when you're in there.
Jeff Cranson:What are they munching on do you think?
Amanda Novak:I don't know if they're munching on anything in there, if they're using it for cover. Generally speaking, these are connected to other areas. I'm not sure.
Jeff Cranson:Yeah. Love to look into that. That's interesting. Yeah. You talked about sharing this information with the other regions, I guess. What would what would be your hope I mean, what would you see as a goal for how to make this a model for other places?
Amanda Novak:I would just love to see us look for new locations every year and just continue to expand the program. Our process has improved each year, so I feel pretty confident that we can replicate what we've done successfully. In the other regions. And our region crew is actually going to be assisting them with their planting this year. So I think that all the plots will be successful.
Jeff Cranson:Are you finding a lot of enthusiasm among your colleagues when you talk about this and, you know, a lot of people who maybe have spent most of their careers just related to road work, fixing roads, repaving roads that they like this added added benefit?
Amanda Novak:Yes. I have definitely found that. Our maintenance crews that are doing this work are so proud of it, and they do such an amazing job. And then there there are folks inside of our agency that that also just appreciate it and always complement us and as they're traveling. And there are other state employees from other agencies that will call and just give us compliments each year or ask to just ensure that we're gonna be doing them again?
Jeff Cranson:I would guess some of those are at the DNR.
Jeff Cranson:And EGLE? Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. Well, what do you tell, you know, if you're at a family gathering or, you know, you're out on the weekend and run into friends or meet somebody and they say, you know, what do you do and you say you're working on that? And then say, well, what do you do there? And you tell them, what's the reaction usually?
Amanda Novak:They're usually pleasantly surprised that I have any kind of hand in planting these flowers. Most people that I talk with have seen them at some point in their travels or their commute to work. And they all have the same positive reaction that are in defense.
Jeff Cranson:They're like, you're the one.
Amanda Novak:Yeah. Yes.
Jeff Cranson:No. That's really cool. I I hope that we are able to expand it. I think you know, it really isn't imperative. I mean, we've talked before about all the things that maybe people didn't used to do or didn't think about and the new thinking in DOTs across the country about how it all fits together and it doesn't have to be either or, you know, we don't have to build roads and build infrastructure at the cost of the environment. There's a way that we can try to mitigate the harm and capitalize on, you know, what assets are there like the right of way that has good fertile ground for this kind of thing.
Amanda Novak:Yes. I I did wanna say too that TSMO has played a huge role in this. There's a gentleman there, Todd Reilly. He's been there since the beginning, helping us with this effort. And he is actually one who plays a key role in expanding this statewide.
Jeff Cranson:Do you want to tell people what TSMO is?
Amanda Novak:That is Transportation Systems Management and Operations.
Jeff Cranson:Very good. I can hardly remember.
Margaret Barondess:It's fine.
Jeff Cranson:But that's great that they're they're part of it too, and that makes sense. Because, you know, that is a statewide planning function, and it it does need to take a look at all these things and how they fit into operations and maintenance. So that makes sense.
Amanda Novak:They have been actually they selected a new seed species that we're gonna try this year. So I don't have a lot of details on what is actually in the mix. But it's called the DOT show stopper. It's quite breathtaking, and it's going to be a mix of perennials and annuals.
Jeff Cranson:And it's called the show stopper because of the immense color, I assume.
Amanda Novak:Yes. Yes.
Jeff Cranson:Oh, that sounds really neat. Okay. Well, very good. Thank you, Amanda. Thank you for what you're doing, both to help travelers have a more aesthetic journey, but also to help the ecosystem and to help mother earth. I appreciate it.
Amanda Novak:Yes. And Thank you. And I appreciate you highlighting this effort and bringing it to everyone's attention.
Jeff Cranson:Sure. Thanks. Stay with us. We'll have more on the other side of this important message.
Margaret Barondess:Know before you go, head on over to Mi Drive to check out the latest on road construction and possible delays along your route. For a detailed map, head over to Michigan. gov/drive.
Jeff Cranson:Please stay tuned for a second segment which is an encore from Earth Day 2021 when I spoke with Margaret Barondess, who manages the environmental section of MDOT, and she explained the National Environmental Policy Act and how it factors into MDOT project planning and development. My guest today is Margaret Barondess who manages the environmental section and brings a very informed and thoughtful approach to these issues. Thank you for being here and tell me how you balance paving paradise and mobility, if not, putting up parking lots?
Margaret Barondess:So in a lot of ways, I look at my career at MDOT in the environment as a translator and a navigator. Of environmental laws for our engineering staff. And, you know, they're great. Just working with engineers is wonderful because they are get it done people. They want to build things. They wanna go out there and make things better for Michigan citizens and make their mobility better. So, you know, how could you ask for more? You're working with a pretty well intentioned crowd there. But often my job is to say, now let's just slow down a minute and talk it through. And my other part of my job is to explain the context for what they're doing. So where is your project located? Are there people who live near it? Are there people who might be affected by the work that you're gonna be doing and the changes that you're gonna be making? Are you in an area with lots of natural resources? Could you be affecting an endangered species? Sometimes we have to do extra studies to find out answers to those questions. And, you know, it's hard sometimes to put the brakes on all of this momentum that we've got. But it's not it's it's a worthwhile effort because what you end up with is a project that is better than it was before. It truly is an effort to balance environmental impacts with transportation needs. And I feel like we've had so many success stories over the years where we did sort of slow down a little bit and take our time to listen to experts on particular resource to communities that felt that there needed to be change with the transportation facility in their neighborhood. We've really taken our time to learn how to be better neighbors to vote the natural and populated environment, the cities that our projects go through.
Jeff Cranson:You hit on the inherent conflict in this and former journalism colleague of mine used to say everybody looks in the mirror and sees an environmentalist. You know, we all like to think that we do our part, but everybody also likes their twenty minute commute to always be twenty minutes. So, when you talk about the engineers and how, you know, they worried about mobility and the things that they get the most complaints about and making sure that projects can be done as timely as possible with the least inconvenience as possible. It can be pretty tough sometimes to balance that when you find out that a stream is going to be disrupted or an endangered species, wildlife or plant can be disrupted. So you mentioned some of the successes. What would you talk about as some highlights in recent years?
Margaret Barondess:Well, some of my favorite projects have been in urban areas where we had problems that we needed to solve. We have very old infrastructure in Michigan because of our transportation history with automobile manufacturing. We were really early out at the gate building the interstate system. And even before the interstate system, we were building freeway types of roads So we were a world leader in design and trying new things. Before the Interstate Highway Act was passed, And so what we're looking at often in urban areas is it's a very old design, which really doesn't fit anymore. What's happening in that community. So, some of the best projects or projects like the I-94 mega project in Detroit where we were able to really listen to what the community was telling us about the freeway and how it divided their neighborhoods. And so there we took the bridges and the pedestrian overpasses and we're converting all of them into complete streets facilities, which will feel like a neighborhood street when you cross it. Less like I'm out on a little rope bridge over the freeway. Of course, we don't have rope bridges, but some of those pedestrian overpasses are pretty intimidating, and people don't use them, often don't use them. So, what we're doing there, I think, it's been very rewarding with respect to responding to what we heard from this people who live there in the city of Detroit and trying to provide better community connectivity.
Jeff Cranson:So that's a good example because it's not, you know, what people think of first when they think of the environment. They think of the physical environment and waterways and an endangered species, and you're talking about kind of the social impact, the social justice impact.
Margaret Barondess:You're right, Jeff. A lot of people don't understand that NEPA, the national environmental Policy Act doesn't just apply to what w e call them the bugs and bunnies, and the plants that are out there. It also applies to communities, and to people, to economic impacts. So, we're looking at all aspects of the environment, the human environment in addition to the natural one.
Jeff Cranson:Yeah. So when you think of that success, that's a good one we responded to the community. And I think another one in recent years would be the I-75 Corridor in Monroe County and the conservation action plan, which you helped author and worked very hard on. I mean, would you count that as a success?
Margaret Barondess:That's a great project for the environment. The freeways very close to Lake Erie, which is a very important ecological resource for a lot of people not just in Michigan, but outside of Michigan. And we were able to put together a conservation plan for the whole twenty mile corridor of the freeway that's going to be rebuilt. And so as each project comes up, we know what we need to do for the natural resources are there. And know, a lot of people drive on a freeway like that and say, what natural resources? Well, it's kind of an amazing place because the freeway is sort of a preserve for prairie like plants. So there's been there's an abundance of rare plants in that area and we've been able to partner with Sterling State Park to move some of those plants to their prairie restoration area. Because of the Corridor conservation plan that we did on I-75. So that's just one example of several related to that particular project. And, yeah, I think that is a success for the environment.
Jeff Cranson:Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's also while we're touching on that. Talk about some of the some things you probably don't wanna revisit, some controversies over the years like the turtle fence on US-31 and Grand Haven. What's your memory of that episode?
Margaret Barondess:Oh, boy, the turtle fence. Yeah. You know, sometimes we do things that a community supports. And the turtle fence was a fence that we put in the block turtles from crossing US-31. Now, turtles in this area were abundant, and we actually did a survey to find out how many turtles had been killed over the course of a year trying to cross this road, and it was pretty appalling. The results of the survey And, you know, this is also a human safety issue too because some of these turtles are quite large and you really don't want to hit one of them with your vehicle.
Jeff Cranson:Well, that's right. People swerve, you know, and things can happen. And that's, yeah, that's often forgotten by the people who demigod these issues that there is a human component. I'm glad you pointed that out.
Margaret Barondess:Absolutely. So this became a high priority for us to try to mitigate, try to do something to stop it. So we installed the fence, and the fence basically the turtles would follow the fence to a culvert that went under the road, and they were able to get to the other side by using that culvert. And so it was a really great project ecologically, and also I thought a good safety project, and it was relatively low cost. But, you know, the the hit we took there was it's not pavement. It's not a bridge. It's for the turtles. Well, you know, it's about balance. And this was a very serious situation for both people and turtles. And we were able to come up with a low cost solution that basically fixed the problem.
Jeff Cranson:Yeah. It's not like we're the only DOT wrestling with these things.
Margaret Barondess:No. All of us do in transportation. And I think so many people take for granted the roads and bridges that they're on with respect to. This is just part of my daily routine. I use this every day. This has always been here. It's a great thing. I'm glad I have it, but it's just part of the background. And I think your transportation system is so much more than that. You're right of way. We're the second largest property owner in the state of Michigan. You know, we have a lot of stewardship for that property that goes on. For safety, there's so many different purposes that right of yay is used for. We use it for pollinator species, for example. Our right of way is a great place for prairie plants and pollinator plants to grow to help the farmers with the B population problem. So you know, there's a lot more to your transportation system than you might think?
Jeff Cranson:I think that, you know, those things, those success stories and the things we've covered along the way are so important and especially when you bring up, you know, the human element and what some Western provinces in Canada have done in some Western states now and the U. S. have done with creating very effective wildlife crossing, you know, tunnels underneath freeways. And the animals, you know, find their way and learn to use them. And that that obviously isn't just about protecting the life of the animals. That's really important to the safety of people traveling on those freeways.
Margaret Barondess:That is true. Absolutely true. And we have done some of those projects too where we put up fencing to channel wildlife. I think I mentioned in the turtle fence example. It's all about channeling the wildlife to a safe place, so there's no conflict between what the people are doing on the road. With their vehicles and the animals. And so it is good for both of us.
Jeff Cranson:So talk a little bit about, I think, one of the one of the species that we hear a lot about and our friends at the DNR talk about is the Eastern Massasago rattle snake. A lot of people don't even know there's a venomous snake in Michigan and saying it that way sounds a lot more ominous than it is because we know it's a very shy creature who would just assume avoid people. But have we had some success in our efforts with the snake?
Margaret Barondess:Absolutely. We have a wildlife ecologist who works at MDOT, who has been working for a number of years on ways to protect the snake, especially during construction activities. Like a lot of snakes that like to sun themselves. And so if there's a wooded area, for example, near their habitat, then they may be sunning themselves on the roadside. And we don't want to get in their way when they're doing that because they are an endangered species. And so we have put up fencing from construction projects, and it'll be what we call the soil erosion fence. It's the short black fence that you see on MDOT projects all the time. It's really to keep soil from eroding into the natural water system, but we've also used it to keep snakes out of our construction zones. So we've also looked at habitat and maybe providing some opportunities for snakes. To get from one side of the road to the other by putting up fencing that directs them in a certain way. We also, on I-75 in Monroe County, it's not the rattlesnake, it's a different snake, but we've put up a curve that they can get up on to escape the freeway. Because if the curb is something they can't climb up on, then they're stuck on the freeway. So often the snakes will be near bridges because the bridges are over water and that tends to be a habitat place for wildlife. So we've used special curves that the snakes can crawl up on.
Jeff Cranson:And that's proven to be effective?
Margaret Barondess:It is. It's a good thing for the snakes. We've seen snakes that dead snakes we found during surveys right on the curbs side. So, you know, they're vulnerable out there and they need to be able to have an escape route. So, again, simple simple solutions. But it takes somebody who has the training to understand what the snake is doing and where it's going and what its habits are. To help them not engineers come up with solutions like that.
Jeff Cranson:So what's informed your thinking about this? I mean, you've gained knowledge over the years doing this. It should go without explanation, but to a lot of people. You know, it's it's probably like, okay, maybe turtles I get that because we all like turtles, but snakes, like, so what? You know, nobody likes snakes. And, you know, how did you come to explain to others and, you know, just advocate for an entire ecosystem. You know, that it's not about the creatures that you like and the creatures you don't like, they're all part of the ecosystem and we need them all.
Margaret Barondess:It is about diversity. And that's a a concept that's really critical to understanding environmental protection. And we need diversity as a human species in the natural world for a variety of reasons. You know, again, we need babies to help us with our food sources. We need as many different kinds of bees as we can get. So diversity is important with respect to pollinators.
Margaret Barondess:And I think a lot of people are familiar with the monarch butterfly situation out there and that they're in trouble. So we need that diversity. We are part of that ecosystem. And we can be a pretty heavy handed part of the ecosystem. You know, we get our way most of the time. And I think with greater understanding about the need for diversity and that you need predators. You need prey. You need different kinds of plants. There are different habitats. There are benefits out there for people as well in preserving that diversity.
Jeff Cranson:Yeah. Well said.
Jeff Cranson:Well said, I think that that's right. We've as humans, we've got the intelligence and the power to be heavy handed, as you say, but with that intelligence also means an obligation and an understanding of what all these things mean in a way that other species obviously wouldn't be able to control. So I think that's a really good point. What else would you want to say about your work, your sections work, and your very dedicated group that shows tremendous patience working with all of the various factions on all these things, you know, I guess, what would you want people to know that you think they might not.
Margaret Barondess:I think one one thing is that, yeah, we're a Department of Transportation, but we're much more than just about roads and bridges. We're about protecting the environment. We're about making communities better. Looking for input from people, from experts on how we can do a better job in making mobility projects happen in ways that seek balance with the environment. So you know, a lot of people don't know that we have an archaeologist, we have couple historians. We have ecologists, biologists. I have a botanist who helps us do these things. So we have diversity within our own area, within MDOT and one of our missions is constant education and outreach, so our engineers can understand the world in which the transportation network exists and that it's pretty complicated out there but we are working on answers with the engineers to try to make that balance happen between environment and mobility.
Jeff Cranson:And so what you've heard often in recent years, especially out of Washington was we got to expedite these projects. We've got to be able to cut through the red tape and one person's red tape is another person's environmental protection. So, what's your answer to that? And in terms of protecting NEPA, I mean, there's a whole website out there about protecting NEPA because there's a group of people that feel that it's under assault. So how would you answer the idea that that it all just creates delays that slow progress and business development.
Margaret Barondess:I think sometimes that you have to look at how are you defining progress? And what does that mean? Is progress simply business, business development. That's certainly part of progress. But I think progress is also protecting the animals and the plants that in the future could hold secrets to help us with our own problems. Who are performing functions, we don't even understand. They're performing. Do you want to be the last the person who says goodbye to the last rattlesnake, to the last bee. No. I think if we sit back and we consider our world as a whole, that there's room for the environment and for economic development.
Jeff Cranson:Well, that's very well said. I appreciate you taking the time to do this, and I hope you have an enjoyable Earth day. And we will have to talk about this again sometime.
Margaret Barondess:Well, thank you, Jeff. I've really enjoyed our talk today.
Jeff Cranson:I'd like to thank you once more for tuning in to Talking in Transportation. You can find show notes and more on Apple podcasts or Buzzsprout. I also want to acknowledge the talented people who helped make this a reality each week starting with Randy Debler, who skillfully edits the audio, Jesse Ball, who proofs the content, Courtney Bates, who post the podcast of various platforms and Jacke Salinas, who transcribes the audio to make it accessible to all.