Talking Michigan Transportation

How Complete Streets support mobility for all

• Season 6 • Episode 175

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On this week’s edition of the Talking Michigan Transportation podcast, a conversation about revisiting the state’s Complete Streets policy, adopted by the State Transportation Commission in 2012.

Amy Matisoff, whose duties include strategic alignment and outreach for the Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT), explains why she’s spearheading a survey of Michigan residents to get feedback on the existing policy and what they’d like to see revised or updated.

Later, she talks about another of her roles as the department’s tribal liaison and her work in that area.

Some related links: 

How the U.S. Department of Transportation (USDOT) tracks policies across the country
https://www.transportation.gov/mission/health/complete-streets-policies  

Smart Growth America’s overview of Complete Streets
https://smartgrowthamerica.org/what-are-complete-streets/ 

A WXYZ-TV story on the survey
https://www.wxyz.com/news/mdot-launches-survey-to-help-improve-roads-for-pedestrians-and-vehicles

Jeff Cranson:

Hello, welcome to Talking Michigan Transportation Podcast. I'm Jeff Cranson. Today I'm going to talk about Michigan's Complete Streets Policy, which is under review for the first time seriously in the 12 years since the State Transportation Commission adopted the first policy in 2012. I'll be talking with Amy Matisoff, who's working on a survey to get as much public input and engagement as possible before making any changes and recommended changes in the policy.

Jeff Cranson:

Amy's also the tribal liaison at MDOT, so I'll talk to her a little bit about that work and what it entails and why departments of transportation have tribal liaisons. So I hope you enjoy the conversation. So Amy Matisoff, as I said in the introduction, is working on a survey to gauge public interest and, I guess, knowledge and just feelings all the way around about the Complete Streets Policy, first adopted by the State Transportation Commission in 2012, after the Michigan legislature approved it and Governor Granholm signed it in 2010. But before we really jump into that, Amy, let's talk about how you arrived in this role. Like so many fascinating but little known jobs in a DOT, you probably never dreamed you'd be involved in something like this.

Amy Matisoff:

No, thank you, Jeff.

Amy Matisoff:

I actually have a degree in landscape architecture from Michigan State University and never thought I would end up working for a DOT. To be completely honest, after getting out of college I worked for the university and then began work in North Carolina for their Parks and Rec department designing hiking, mountain bike trail, equestrian trail all across the state. And when I relocated back to Michigan, got my first state job with the Michigan DNR and got involved in their grants program. So I worked for the Michigan Natural Resource Trust Fund, as well as land and water and recreation passport, and my experience with the grant program grant programs at the DNR is what brought me to MDOT and I was able to get a position in MDOT's Office of Economic Development working on the transportation alternatives program grants as well as the Transportation Economic Development Fund grants. So that's how I got to MDOT and my association with the Office of Economic Development led me to the position I'm in now, where I had previously worked under my cap and now work for Terry in the strategic outreach alignment specialist and tribal liaison role.

Jeff Cranson:

So you're starting Parks and Rec? Tell me, Leslie, no, a hero D, why are you even asking me this? Or C? It's a dumb show and I never watched it.

Amy Matisoff:

It's funny. You ask that because so many people say that I am like her because Parks and Rec, I have blonde hair. Everyone sees my pictures, so I think she's hilarious and that it's a funny show.

Jeff Cranson:

And no doubt in your everyday life, you work with some of the characters.

Amy Matisoff:

Absolutely 100%.

Jeff Cranson:

So what have you learned along the way, I guess, and what feeds your passions? And I should have mentioned earlier I did in the intro but as I set up our conversation that you also where I had as a MDOT's tribal liaison. So we'll talk more about that after the Complete Streets conversation. But what keeps you going, keeps you interested.

Amy Matisoff:

With my degree in landscape architecture, I've always really been interested in the human and the interface of human and natural environments coming together and what we do to transform our environments and what that looks like. Regardless if I was in parks and rec or transportation, I've always loved to see projects come to completion and see how something shows up in a concept and then is built somewhere. It's just amazing to see how projects evolve and what they turn into. I love being able to see that for our MDOT projects as well. The scale of our projects is pretty awesome compared to some of the other ones I've worked on. It's really fun to be involved in. Then I also really just care about people and how we're helping provide people with what they need. I think a lot of the times in both of my realms people take natural resources for granted and they take transportation for granted how you help communicate that to folks so that they understand the needs of each area. I say that really my full-time job is just a translator and a communicator.

Jeff Cranson:

Yeah, that's well put. I'm glad that you put that emphasis on communicator, because everybody has a role. The better you are at that, the more you're going to succeed in just about any job you do. Talk about complete streets. It's probably still a widely misunderstood concept, or maybe a lot of people just aren't even familiar with it. Maybe that's what you find out. I like to think about it more as a process and an approach, and that is something that's so prescriptive that anybody, especially a state DOT, is trying to ram it down the throats of other communities and other people that are involved in these things. How do you explain it to the layman or friend or family member who asks you about your job?

Amy Matisoff:

I explain complete streets to folks as creating a transportation environment or transportation system that feels safe and is usable for everyone. It does get complex really quickly when you start talking about the concept of complete streets, because I think what people see in their mind is different than what actually ends up on the ground. Complete streets, just like you said, is more an iteration of a process and involves a lot of engagement. That's the part I think sometimes we miss is the front end, which is the engagement component of it. People are just thinking about the end goal of whatever is constructed, and engagement is such a key element of finding out what communities and what people need from their transportation. And I think one of the misconceptions too, is that M DOT is supposed to be the one providing all of that to everyone, when in reality we only own about 11% of the roads in Michigan. So it's a partnership with our local transportation agencies to provide the needs of every transportation user on the streets. It doesn't necessarily always have to be on trunk line.

Jeff Cranson:

When you think about communities that have really embraced it. You know helped, had officials in those communities that helped get the policy over the finish line, both as legislation in 2010 and then both as an STC policy in 2012. Suzanne Schultz, who has been on the podcast previously and was a longtime planner for the City of Grand Rapids and is now a member of the State Transportation Commission, worked really closely with folks at M DOT and the Michigan Environmental Council and other members of the coalition to get the legislation passed. So that makes you know I think of Grand Rapids, nan Arbor, traverse City as being very progressive on complete streets. Are there others you would identify as you think that have really embraced it and succeeded with it?

Amy Matisoff:

Yes, I think that those are your big communities that everyone always thinks of, but I think a lot of communities do what they can. So, you know, city of East Lansing and Lansing are trying to integrate components of complete streets where possible. Obviously, east Lansing is a little easier being a university town, but you're also seeing it in smaller communities when you could look at examples all across northern Michigan where it may not be a painted bike lane but folks are realizing that wideened shoulders are at least providing a safer space for vulnerable road users. So it's very little things that don't have to be big flashy thing that I think a lot of communities are realizing that they can do fairly easily. That doesn't take a lot of additional cost. So you're going to start seeing more bike lanes painted or, you know, brighter crosswalks with better lighting, those types of things, to just make sure that we're not just focusing on the folks that are inside vehicles.

Jeff Cranson:

Well, something I found following this legislation, you know, as a journalist when it was adopted and then getting more involved in understanding of it in my role now, is that a lot of people in rural areas, if asked about it and you give them a real quick, you know just a thumbnail of what the policy is, they think they kind of recoil like well, no, you know, I don't want to do that, like it'll slow me down. But then you start talking about well, this means connectivity and you know more people are biking and it certainly means connectivity sometimes to trails which have seen a great deal of growth and popularity, even in conservative rural areas of Michigan. Is that kind of the metamorphosis that you've seen? And I should have also mentioned, not to be too lower peninsula centric, that I think Marquette has been pretty aggressive about complete streets too.

Amy Matisoff:

Absolutely yes, and I think what people miss out on is the economic development side of complete streets. Just like you mentioned is that the connection to trail systems, particularly in those more rural areas, is critical to communities that need tourism. So the folks that look at a full system and really include recreation and transportation and the overlap, I think see a lot more benefit when they pay attention to the linkages there so that there's less need to use cars.

Jeff Cranson:

Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. So if somebody said to you isn't this a solution in search of a problem, what would you say? Complete streets, aim to fix. What's the real goal?

Amy Matisoff:

I think complete streets aims to make sure that we're addressing the needs of all of our transportation users, and I do think that complete streets, along with context sensitive solutions I want to throw that in there because I don't think complete streets can happen without context sensitivity, meaning that the right place for the right work and so I think that complete streets, along with context sensitive solutions, is a great tool for us to achieve things like components of the safe systems approach, to achieve components of equity and to achieve components of climate resiliency. The concept of mobility for all helps us overcome some of the things we're battling as a nation and as a diverse population of people. I think complete streets can provide a lot of those types of things. It's not going to solve all of our problems, but I do think it helps us strive in the direction that we think we need to go.

Jeff Cranson:

Yeah well, there's no better measure of equity and I think you can look around now and certainly we'll look back on that concept, that mobility for all. That should absolutely be everyone's goal, so I'm glad you put it that way. One thing I've read about this is that they say there are three groups who are worse off in a complete streets world Motorists who want to drive faster you know, it's okay with me that they're worse off Even fringe residents and property owners and local merchants who rely on street parking. So what do you say to those people?

Amy Matisoff:

Well, I say to the people who just want to drive faster that that's what highways are for.

Amy Matisoff:

So, you know, the idea is that when you're going into someone's downtown you know a downtown trunk line, main street you should not have the expectation that you should be able to drive 5565 miles an hour. That's where people live, work and recreate, and slower speeds keep everyone safe. Something I'd like to highlight is that we make folks slow down on our road projects to 45 miles an hour because our folks are out there working and we want to keep them safe. It's the same idea that the slower speeds help keep people outside of vehicles safer, and so for those folks, I think we've made our point.

Amy Matisoff:

For the folks who are worried about their parking, I do understand that in some places there is a reduction of parking, but I think that there's also a way, with proper engagement and planning, to not have it be an all or nothing, and so paying attention to what needs are where Really makes sense. So if you're concerned about street parking outside, in the front of your Build, your building and your place of business, maybe there's not a bike lane on that street and it makes sense to put the bike lane two blocks over. That is also not a truck route, you know. So it really is context sensitive and needed to plan, be planned well, so that there's not a big fight over those five or six parking spots.

Jeff Cranson:

I forget what your middle item was, oh, it was well, it was kind of tied into together urban fringe residents and property owners and then Local merchants who rely on street parks. So you basically Answered that. I just think that, like so many things that a DOT and other government agencies do, if you ask people, do you want safer streets? They'll say yes and they'll say, okay, what if that means that there might not be as much parking? They'll say, well, we want to safer streets but we also want parking, just like we want better roads but we don't want to pay more, right? So you, you have to balance those things all the time. We will continue the conversation right after a quick break.

MDOT Message:

The Michigan Department of Transportation reminds you to slow down, follow all signs and pay attention when driving through work zones, because all employees deserve a safe place to work. Work zone safety. We're all in this together.

Jeff Cranson:

What? What do you think is the most misunderstood aspect of complete streets? Or maybe the biggest myth or myths about complete streets?

Amy Matisoff:

I think a couple. The first one is that people think that it's going to cost us an insane amount of more money. Granted, there are some projects that are going to cost more. If we're talking about, you know, adding a 10 foot wide non motorized path to a bridge, yes, that is going to be very expensive, but I think a lot of the work that our staff already do and don't even necessarily think of it as complete streets happens, and it's fairly low cost and pretty easy to integrate into our projects, and we already have kind of the standards and guidelines to allow it. So it doesn't have to come with an extreme dollar sign to integrate it into projects.

Amy Matisoff:

And I don't think that that should prevent local communities from doing the same thing. There are going to be some high dollar projects, and we realize that, but that's when planning and engagement and partnership with local communities is how we have those conversations to pay for those bigger projects. And then I think the second myth is that there are competing FHWA requirements on the department, which I do understand exist, but I believe that the guidance coming out of USDOT and FHWA doesn't preclude us from doing both well. And so instead of trying to say well, there's this one side of guidance over here that doesn't allow us to do complete streets. I think we could creatively look at how we mesh those to make sure that we're meeting the intentions of both for this specific project we're looking at, and those would be probably the two biggest myths that I think people have in their minds about complete streets elements.

Jeff Cranson:

So, as part of this process to revisit the policy, since it's been 12 years and everything certainly needs to be studied and revised, you've led a pretty robust survey of Michigan residents to engage them on what they maybe know about complete streets, what they think and what they might want. I know there are critics who say you know, many more people still drive cars than those who ride bikes or use public transportation, at least in most of our state. This is social engineering. What do you? How do you respond to that?

Amy Matisoff:

My response to that would be are those folks driving only because they have no other option? So I think that there's a big community of people who are driving a car only because that's their only mode of transportation that feasibly gets them back and forth to work, to provide for their families, and they may go without getting critical medication or having the meals that they want, just to put gas in their car so they can continue to work. And I think if we had a more interconnected system that isn't so vehicular, like road focused, that we would see those numbers of people who drive vehicles drop. But right now we don't have that interconnected system, with transit and you know other modes of transportation available where people feel that they can routinely do the things they need to do without relying on a personal vehicle.

Jeff Cranson:

Yeah, it's reliability and certainty that really makes a difference for people having that confidence right.

Amy Matisoff:

Absolutely. So my answer back would be you know, if we provided the right thing, I think that those numbers would absolutely calm down.

Jeff Cranson:

Can you? It's too early because you're still sifting through some of these survey responses that are very fresh. But I mean, do you have any sense of, you know, demographics or geographic breakdown? What kind of responses you received?

Amy Matisoff:

Yes, I think demographically, we see the same demographics more routinely across MDOT, which is somewhat disappointing. I will say that the majority of our respondents were, you know, white folks, that were, you know, 55 and older, and I think that that's just kind of the way survey responses go. Not that we don't want to hear from those folks. It's very critical, we hear from everyone. However, folks of varied age and ethnicity would be nice to have across the board so that we make sure that we are getting responses from folks that represent the entire you know census of Michigan, who we are and what we're made up of.

Amy Matisoff:

So that's a little bit of a struggle, but we can only do so much with getting survey responses I do. I'm very excited that we got over 1400 responses to this survey, which is a lot compared to what maybe our individual projects get. And we're doing a really cool GIS mapping with our GIS department to actually look at the responses we got by zip code, compared to regions, as compared to where we have trunkline main streets, to see if there's some overlap between whether M Dot roads at slower speeds and if we got a high response rate, and so we're kind of just doing some internal investigation of those and coming up with some themes to the comments that we can put in an executive summary to share with everybody.

Jeff Cranson:

Yeah well, you're not alone in facing a real challenge and trying to get those broad based responses to various surveys and studies. It's a challenge for everybody. But let's talk just a little bit and we can do a whole nother podcast conversation about this. But since I touched on it earlier, your other role is tribal liaison, and why? Why? Why DOTs have that position and you know what that involves.

Amy Matisoff:

Thank you. Yes, I am the kind of one stop shop for any of the 12 sovereign nations that we share geography with here in Michigan. So, from a state level, the tribal liaison role is required in many executive directives back to the 2000s forward, being reaffirmed by Governor Whitmer in 2019. Additionally, from a federal level and an FHWA level, it makes sense there's a lot of different programs that are federally given out to tribal nations that it makes sense to have a tribal liaison in M Dot.

Amy Matisoff:

I'm very blessed to be a part of the executive office and the executive area, which allows me, I think, to do my job really well the fact that when I'm interfacing with the 12 nations, I am essentially representing our director or governor, and so I am very cautious and respectful with the fact that they are sovereign entities that we share geography with and do my best to try to communicate and be transparent with them about how anything that is verification related may have a cause and effect on their existence. So it's a pretty big bucket of things that you could think about, all the way from our mowing practices on our roadways that potentially would impact medicinal plants all the way up to the 116 work that our environmental services section does, and cultural, historical artifacts and locations, to just having conversations about detour routes and how our road work might affect the economics of tribal facilities. So it's pretty vast and also very rewarding and exciting to work with so many different communities of people.

Jeff Cranson:

Yeah, absolutely. It's important work and, I think, really interesting and certainly a good thing that DOT has put an emphasis on that. I think when you and I talk again, maybe we can talk about some more of the specifics and some of the challenges that you've come across and how you've solved those. So let's look forward to that. In the meantime, I really appreciate you taking the time to talk about all these things. I'll be watching you really, along with many others, about how the Complete Streets policy is updated and revised, going forward, and I really appreciate you making time to do this before you head off on spring break.

Amy Matisoff:

Thanks, Jeff. I really appreciate the time and the opportunity.

Jeff Cranson:

I'd like to thank you once more for tuning in to Talking Michigan Transportation. You can find show notes and more on Apple Podcasts or Buzzsprout. I also want to acknowledge the talented people who help make this a reality each week, starting with Randy Debler, who skillfully edits the audio, Jesse Ball, who proofs the content, Courtney Bates, who posts the podcast of various platforms, and Jacke Salinas, who transcribes the audio to make it accessible to all.