This week on the Talking Michigan Transportation podcast, following two important announcements from Gov. Gretchen Whitmer solidifying Michigan’s commitment to electric vehicle (EV) charging infrastructure, a conversation with two of the people helping to make the ideas a reality.
First, Elsa Givan, an analyst at Silicon Foundry who is working with the Michigan Economic Development Corp. and Michigan’s Office of Future Mobility and Electrification, will talk about why this is a leapfrog moment for Michigan and the future of automated and electric vehicles. In a second segment, Michele Mueller, a senior project manager at MDOT, explains the Request for Proposals (RFP) process.
On Tuesday, Sept. 21, while participating in the opening ceremony at Motor Bella, the governor announced an initiative to develop the nation's first wireless charging infrastructure on a public road in the U.S. The development of a wireless dynamic charging roadway in Michigan is a step toward addressing range anxiety and will accelerate the transition to all-electric transit fleets in Michigan and beyond.
On Wednesday, Sept. 22, at the Detroit Regional Chamber of Commerce’s Mackinac Policy Conference, the governor followed up with two related announcements:
Givan explains why these EV announcements represent a leapfrog moment for Michigan and what other states are doing in the charging realm. She likens the charging initiative to the Cavnue project, suggesting this project gives Michigan the ability to rapidly accelerate its electrification strategy by adopting a technology on the five to 10-year mass-adoption horizon.
She also predicts that as automated EVs become the national standard, consumer expectations will shift toward complementary automated charging infrastructure, unlocking massive time and cost efficiencies for commercial freight, public transit, and private transportation.
Underscoring the economic and work force development imperative, Givan says that in order to “own the future of mobility, Michigan must place bold bets on electrification innovation.” Projects like the Electric Avenue signal to the private sector that the state is the most conducive and supportive environment nationwide for EV companies to launch and scale their businesses, which in turn leads to new high-paying jobs in the mobility sector and economic growth.
Later, MDOT’s Mueller joins the podcast to explain her role in overseeing the RFP for the wireless charging roadway concept. She explains why Michigan offers a holistic and supportive environment for developing charging technology and the collaboration among several state agencies.
Mueller also touts MDOT’s other pioneering efforts in mobility like Mcity at the University of Michigan and the American Center for Mobility as effective examples of those partnerships.
Because the RFP process encourages creativity and allows for developing innovative solutions, the expectation is for a number of companies to seize the opportunity to try out their concepts.
Mueller further underscores Givan’s comments about the value of this process providing myriad opportunities for companies here in Michigan to utilize and test their technology in a live environment.
Podcast photo: Elsa Givan. Photo courtesy of Silicon Foundry.
This week on the Talking Michigan Transportation podcast, following two important announcements from Gov. Gretchen Whitmer solidifying Michigan’s commitment to electric vehicle (EV) charging infrastructure, a conversation with two of the people helping to make the ideas a reality.
First, Elsa Givan, an analyst at Silicon Foundry who is working with the Michigan Economic Development Corp. and Michigan’s Office of Future Mobility and Electrification, will talk about why this is a leapfrog moment for Michigan and the future of automated and electric vehicles. In a second segment, Michele Mueller, a senior project manager at MDOT, explains the Request for Proposals (RFP) process.
On Tuesday, Sept. 21, while participating in the opening ceremony at Motor Bella, the governor announced an initiative to develop the nation's first wireless charging infrastructure on a public road in the U.S. The development of a wireless dynamic charging roadway in Michigan is a step toward addressing range anxiety and will accelerate the transition to all-electric transit fleets in Michigan and beyond.
On Wednesday, Sept. 22, at the Detroit Regional Chamber of Commerce’s Mackinac Policy Conference, the governor followed up with two related announcements:
Givan explains why these EV announcements represent a leapfrog moment for Michigan and what other states are doing in the charging realm. She likens the charging initiative to the Cavnue project, suggesting this project gives Michigan the ability to rapidly accelerate its electrification strategy by adopting a technology on the five to 10-year mass-adoption horizon.
She also predicts that as automated EVs become the national standard, consumer expectations will shift toward complementary automated charging infrastructure, unlocking massive time and cost efficiencies for commercial freight, public transit, and private transportation.
Underscoring the economic and work force development imperative, Givan says that in order to “own the future of mobility, Michigan must place bold bets on electrification innovation.” Projects like the Electric Avenue signal to the private sector that the state is the most conducive and supportive environment nationwide for EV companies to launch and scale their businesses, which in turn leads to new high-paying jobs in the mobility sector and economic growth.
Later, MDOT’s Mueller joins the podcast to explain her role in overseeing the RFP for the wireless charging roadway concept. She explains why Michigan offers a holistic and supportive environment for developing charging technology and the collaboration among several state agencies.
Mueller also touts MDOT’s other pioneering efforts in mobility like Mcity at the University of Michigan and the American Center for Mobility as effective examples of those partnerships.
Because the RFP process encourages creativity and allows for developing innovative solutions, the expectation is for a number of companies to seize the opportunity to try out their concepts.
Mueller further underscores Givan’s comments about the value of this process providing myriad opportunities for companies here in Michigan to utilize and test their technology in a live environment.
Podcast photo: Elsa Givan. Photo courtesy of Silicon Foundry.
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Jeff Cranson: Hello. This is the Talking Michigan Transportation podcast. I'm Jeff Cranson, director of communications at the Michigan Department of Transportation.
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Cranson: This week, following two important announcements from Governor Gretchen Whitmer solidifying Michigan’s commitment to electric vehicle charging infrastructure, I’ll be speaking with two of the people helping to make the ideas a reality. First, Elsa Givan, an analyst at Silicon Foundry who is working with the Michigan Economic Development Corporation and Michigan’s Office of Future Mobility and Electrification, will talk about why this is a leapfrog moment for Michigan and the future of automated and electric vehicles. Later, I’ll speak with Michelle Mueller, a senior project manager at MDOT overseeing the technical aspects.
[Music]
Cranson: As promised, I'm here with Elsa Givan. Thank you again for joining the podcast, Elsa.
Elsa Givan: Thanks for having me on, Jeff.
Cranson: So, you know, first talk a little bit about your work and what you've been doing for Michigan.
Givan: Yeah, so we have been working with Trevor’s office, the Office of Future Mobility and Electrification, for a couple of years now, supporting them on everything from setting up the office to mobility strategy, electrification strategy, and sourcing emerging technologies and interactions with startups in Silicon Valley.
Cranson: And Trevor’s office would be the Office of Future Mobility and Electrification.
Givan: Yep, that’s right.
Cranson: Referring to Trevor Pawl who's been a frequent guest on the podcast. Let's talk about these electric vehicle announcements, and, you know, you say they represent a leapfrog moment for Michigan. Why is that and, you know, what are other states doing in terms of charging on the fly and building an operating charging infrastructure?
Givan: Yeah, you know, it's a great question. I think when we looked out at where Michigan stands nationally, we we're doing pretty well, but we could be doing better. And we look at that as an opportunity for a leapfrog moment, and what I mean by that is can we identify where electrification is going to be in five to ten years from now and start implementing those technologies today? So, with these EV announcements that we've had in the past couple days, we are trying to get to where the ball is going and embracing technologies that we think are on the horizon line. That has a couple of benefits in our view. The first is that it starts to prime Michigan for EV adoption at a mass scale. The second is that it signals to EV companies and mobility companies broadly that Michigan is the right place to grow and scale their EV businesses.
Cranson: So, how many states would you guess are really into this, you know, deeply and committed to it, and, you know, basically competing for those businesses that you're talking about?
Givan: Yeah, you know, there's a handful at the top. I think it's interesting to look out at how different states have approached attracting EV companies because there's been different strategies. California is obviously a leader in this space. They've been really heavily focused on policy and incentives to drive EV activity in the state and really focus on building up that consumer side so building the demand side, which in turn creates activity for EV companies to come and take advantage of on the supply side. I think when you look at a state like Michigan which has been really focused on infrastructure and real-world deployments as a way to anchor EV activity, that's a different strategy to take. Then you look at a state like Indiana, for instance, which has been focused on kind of R&D for cutting edge versions of certain charging technologies, so I think there are, you know, a couple different strategies at play here, and I think they're all kind of, you know, proceeding accordingly.
Cranson: Well, so before we get into Electric Avenue and the specific announcement that the governor made and, you know, what it means in terms of Michigan and the request for proposals, do you see a time when government basically regulates the technology? I mean, when you drive all kinds of different cars into the same gas station, you know, that nozzle has to fit in and fill it up with gas, but that's not the way it works right now with charging infrastructure and various vehicles and their charging mechanisms. Is that going to be universal someday?
Givan: Yeah, it's a great question. I think if it were to be universal that would have to be at the federal level, but I think that you're already seeing a push, actually, in the private sector to standardize and have more universal charging infrastructure. So, I think it's been interesting to see that's a push, and it’s also coming from companies that aren't pure play EV charging companies. So, you look at large oil and gas companies, for instance, that are considering how to build out mobility hubs in the place of where gas stations used to stand and how those mobility hubs can actually be accessible for multiple types of vehicles, whether those are hydrogen vehicles or electric vehicles or internal combustion engine vehicles, and then looking at how those can be very flexible and kind of utilized by any type of vehicle.
Cranson: So, we might not need those hubs if, you know, the pavement can be made so that charging infrastructure is embedded, and we can charge our vehicles as we drive. That's what this proposal is looking into or at least, you know, trying to study. Can you talk about that?
Givan: Right. So, the request for proposal from the state that Governor Whitmer announced on Tuesday is for semi-dynamic and dynamic charging capabilities so charging in motion. You're exactly right. It's charging your vehicle as you drive down the road. If you think about it, the potential is pretty incredible for this type of technology. You don't have to go to the gas station anymore or even to the EV charging station. If you're able to charge in motion that really unlocks all kinds of efficiencies, both from a cost perspective and a time perspective. You can think about the range of potential use cases for that, so obviously for passenger vehicles, that really eliminates the need to go and refuel or recharge. Also, commercial freight not having to stop and refuel can really lead to some time efficiencies when on the road for long-haul truckers. So, I think there is so much potential for this, and we're really just scratching the surface.
Cranson: So, you envision an era where people look back on the term range anxiety and it's obsolete. It's about as real a fear someday as, I guess, maybe running out of gas was at one time in the automobile history.
Givan: Exactly, and I think range anxiety is, you know, no longer really in in the playbook anymore if roads can charge as you drive on them, especially if they're complemented by fast charging stations on either end, you really start to see a whole network that could be built out across the country that would enable, you know, the EV road trip from coast to coast that I think a lot of people have as an aspirational goal in their minds but feel isn't totally possible yet today.
Cranson: So, yeah, some of the reporters’ questions yesterday, Tuesday, and Wednesday after the two announcements focused on, you know, “Why isn't Michigan doing it the way Indiana is doing it or the way other states are doing it?” So, can you talk about that strategy and how it's different and why it's different?
Givan: Yeah, definitely. So, Michigan is really focused, as I said, you know, on real world deployments and testing technology as it's deployed on real city streets, on real public roads, to understand how real-life people will interact with it. So, I think that's been the real focus in Michigan, and as a result, the Michigan RFP is focused on existing commercialized technology that can accomplish dynamic charging, so these are for companies that have already built out their technology, have already deployed it in other real-world conditions. There are a handful of companies that, you know, we're aware of that have already done these types of deployments. So, the Michigan RFP really focuses on those companies coming to deploy in Michigan. The Indiana RFP is really interesting it just has a slightly different approach. They are focused on a very specific type of dynamic charging technology, magnetized concrete, and their RFP, or their project, is a multi-phase, starting with R&D, project that will begin with research at Purdue University and then eventually result in a real-world deployment. But there are a couple of steps in between there that they're going to have to go through because the technology they're working on hasn't yet been commercialized in real-world conditions, so that's the difference. We're kind of jumping to who are the companies that are already doing this and how we get that onto Michigan roads. Indiana is looking at, “Okay, how can we take a kind of nascent version of this technology and help commercialize it and get it onto the first public road that it will be on?”
Cranson: So, how do you think this fits into a broader vision for the future of automated and electric vehicles? We haven't talked much about automated vehicles but, you know, these things are happening kind of in parallel developments, right?
Givan: Yeah, and we see we see a lot of potential as autonomous vehicles are adopted at scale. This is a big reason why we're so interested in this dynamic charging technology because, think about it, if you have an autonomous vehicle that gets you from point A to point B, do you really have the expectation that you'll, you know, stop and refuel with a manual charging plug-in? Probably not so much. I think a lot of people are going to expect that there will be autonomous charging capabilities when we have autonomous vehicles. So, this type of dynamic charging technology allows us to kind of get ahead of the curve on autonomous vehicle adoption and make it as smooth as possible for consumers so that when you do have an autonomous vehicle taking you from point A to point B, you don't have to worry about manual charging. That creates a lot of efficiency gains but also it's just, you know, it's convenient.
Cranson: So, it should probably go without saying that, you know, a state like Michigan should obviously support the technology which our major employers, which are still automakers and suppliers, are investing in. So, what's the economic imperative, you know, and how does workforce development factor in here?
Givan: Yeah, so creating the kind of conditions for EV companies, AV companies, and mobility companies broadly in Michigan to thrive is really important. Michigan, you know, as you said, definitely has the incumbent advantage when it comes to mobility and the economic development and workforce components associated with that, but we're really at a tipping point here where there will be many new high-paying EV and AV jobs that emerge as these technologies are adopted at scale. So, it's really an imperative for Michigan to take a bold stance on these technologies now, and we've seen that with the Michigan Autonomous Corridor and now with this project really drawing a line in the sand and saying, “the future of mobility will be created in Michigan.” And all of the jobs that are emerging that will be relevant to supporting that future will also be Michigan jobs.
Cranson: So, when you talk about the autonomous corridor, you're talking about the Cavnue project in southeast Michigan, and obviously you have some familiarity with that. Is that creating a buzz in your circles and in other parts of the country?
Givan: You know, it is. It's interesting because we talked to mobility companies all day based in, you know, all over the country from Silicon Valley to New York, and we hear repeatedly that the Cavnue corridor and even this recent announcement—I was having a conversation yesterday with a company and they said, “We're going to have to take another look at Michigan for a manufacturing facility because this is really interesting and this shows that Michigan is really dedicated on both AV and EV topics.” So, I think that we're going to be seeing more of that kind of buzz, particularly with companies that aren't based in Michigan but are definitely eyeing Michigan’s supply chain as a potential future on their roadmap.
Cranson: So, if you were talking to some students maybe heading off to college or maybe finishing up their sophomore year and starting to get serious about what they want to do, you know, what would you tell them in terms of automotive engineering and the kinds of careers this will create?
Givan: I would tell them that there is so much activity, particularly on the software side right now, for the future of mobility jobs. There are some really interesting opportunities for students to learn foundational skills in software, whether that's learning about AIML or computer vision, image processing, data analytics, that can be applied to many different types of jobs and mobility going forward. So, I think those are foundational skills that students should be looking at now because they can be applied to so much.
Cranson: That's great. Well, that covers a lot, I guess. The second announcement was relating more to this Lake Michigan charging circuit where we're hoping to create kind of a connected corridor around the Lake Michigan side of Michigan, west Michigan, and link with some of the other Great Lakes states. All of that fits together pretty nicely. What would you want to say to, I guess, bundle this all up?
Givan: I think to bundle it all up I would say we're really looking at electrification from every possible angle. So, the Lake Michigan EV charging circuit is a great example of looking at EV charging from, you know, the regular perspective of any tourist. How can you take an EV and travel around Lake Michigan, see all of the natural beauty that the state has to offer, but also do it in a way that actually protects that natural beauty by traveling in a more sustainable and green way? So, I think we're really looking at things all the way from the tourism side, exploring Michigan from a recreation perspective, all the way down to, you know, the Electric Avenue project which is more about infrastructure at a foundational level that can support multiple types of transportation in the state. So, we're really trying to take a comprehensive view here, and I think that's reflected in these policies.
Cranson: Well, that's great. I appreciate you taking time to talk about this and that you're doing such good work for our state, so thank you, Elsa.
Givan: Thanks so much, Jeff. Thanks.
Cranson: Please stay tuned. We'll be back with more Talking Michigan Transportation right after this.
Narrator: The Michigan Department of Transportation reminds you that when a vehicle collides with another vehicle, person or other object, it is a crash, not an accident. By reducing human error, we can prevent crashes and rebuild Michigan roads safely.
Cranson: Welcome back. Joining the podcast now is Michele Mueller, a senior project manager at MDOT, who has been working for some time on the RFP for the Electric Avenue project. Thank you, I know how busy you are, especially lately, so I’m really glad you could take a little time to explain the technical aspects of the project, Michele.
Michele Mueller: Sure, happy to join. Thanks for having me.
Cranson: So, can you talk first about the RFP process and why it's required for things like this?
Mueller: Yeah, so MDOT does, for all of our projects in this nature, what we call an RFP process, which is a request for proposal. So, we put out a document that shares the opportunity and what we're looking for. Then we ask those that are interested to submit a proposal to us and showcase their understanding of the project, their qualifications to complete the task or the project, and some of it even gets into different innovative ideas that they may have based on what the request is. So, there's different methods that we use. Some are just based on qualifications of a team and then some are based on, like this one is, it's based not only on the qualifications of the company or the team but also on the price. So, we have a criteria that we use that will be posted with a request for a proposal for this project, and it outlines how that price is evaluated. That ensures that the state of Michigan gets a good value for the money that we're putting forward in the project.
Cranson: How much money do you think we're talking about for this one?
Mueller: So, this one is estimated for—which is shown in the request for proposal when it comes out—$1.9 million. It is requiring a 25% cost share, so the submitters will have to provide that cost share. Then it also allows the opportunity for those responding to submit an additional cost share and actually have a separate scoring line item for that. It's not required beyond the 25%, but some may want to do that and then they will get points based on that as well.
Cranson: That shows a firmer commitment, basically.
Mueller: Exactly, Jeff, so what it does is allows the opportunity for those proposing to have a larger investment in the opportunity, and, you know, with the response that we're receiving, I think we'll see some good opportunities come forward.
Cranson: So, when you're managing these things and thinking about them ahead of time and then putting together the actual, you know, parameters for the request for proposals, how do you balance giving them, you know, wide latitude so that they can think pretty pie in the sky about technology and what it could do and think of things maybe that we didn't think of but also, you know, keep up some guardrails and some parameters? How do you do that?
Mueller: So, I think it's just that, right? It's setting the parameters. We take the document that we supply and what we're asking for is we're outlining what we want, right? We're outlining what we want the goals to be, or what our goals are. The overall vision that we're looking for, and we set the parameters associated to that, but allow, as you said, just the opportunity for them to really expand and go beyond that and expand that vision based on what they can bring to the project. So that could be, you know, we may see, for something like this, we may see an individual entity, we may see a couple entities that go in on it and collaborate together and bring more of a team approach to it. It is a pretty large, obviously, large project. It does cover end to end all the way. We'll take the concept and really walk through that process into a design phase, and then it will continue to go through. There's permits and, you know, construction and then obviously the operation of the corridor, so it really is end to end for the different specialty areas. I think it'll be exciting to see teams come together and form that relationship to put in good proposals.
Cranson: Is the hope that we can, you know, we always talk about dig once and trying to dovetail projects with other utility improvements and things like that, is the hope that maybe this could be done, the technology embedded, at the same time we're doing other work on a roadway?
Mueller: It could be depending on the solutions, you know. I think we'll see different solutions come forward. We don't have a corridor picked out. We don't have any, you know, per se requirements associated. That will be a collaborative decision amongst many entities. As we look at those, one thing is just that, right? Do we have something that pairs well, that's already happening and in progress that also meets some of the goals as far as usage, the communities, right? This has to be some place where we really make it available for different opportunities for companies here in Michigan to utilize it and test their technology in a live environment.
Cranson: So, as you know, I talked to Elsa Givan earlier about this, and she said what she's hearing already just based on the announcements, the feedback, is that some companies are saying, “I really need to take another look at Michigan based on this.” And that's obviously our most fervent hope is that this will lead to, you know, more investment and more jobs. What do you see happening there? I know you're not an economist but obviously that's your hope, too.
Mueller: Yeah, it is. Since, you know, the governor made the announcement yesterday, I have received over approximately about 10 emails already with people inquiring how they can get access to the proposals that we have out that will be posted on the 28, so that's good, right? There's a lot of excitement in less than 24 hours, you know, we're seeing that. And I think people have can look at things that have happened here in Michigan, things that we've done here holistically, and the environment is great, right? The environment is really supportive. We partner very well with the different state agencies, with the different communities and leaders in those environments to make a holistic environment for companies to come and do work here. That's what makes these types of projects happen. It makes them really exciting. So, you know, when you can take an environment and, you know, we have the opportunities for different closed testing with M City, ACM, things like that, but then you can also take those, and you can now move them out into the real-world environment and actually put to use in different modes of transportation. So, this isn't just passenger vehicles, right? You could have freight vehicles that could be using it, transit, different types of modes of transportation and understand what this looks like, you know. Some may be, like a transit, at a stop somewhere on this corridor that we pick, and they’re dropping off and picking up and they're charging on a pad. A passenger vehicle may be utilizing the road infrastructure and charging as it's moving, you know, across that road network. So, those are the exciting opportunities, and Michigan is a great place to have that. It's a great opportunity for many companies to be here.
Cranson: So, as you've been working on this past several weeks, what kind of reaction do you get from, you know, your friends and family members when you tell them what your work entails? Do they say, “Wow, you know, that's awesome, that's really futuristic,” or are they skeptical or a little both?
Mueller: Right now, I think it's a little both, right? I’m not one to really talk too much, you know, about a lot of things I’m working on, especially things like this. We've been developing it and it's been an iterative process, so I’m glad to see it come. In a couple days it'll be out live. So, you know, I think people are trying to get their heads around how this would actually work and function. I think the really great thing about this will be is it allows us the opportunity to understand and work through the challenges, right? Everything's not always perfect, and we're okay with that. The important part is that we're going to work through those challenges. We're going to have that environment for that testing, and then answer those questions, right? There's questions that people have asked me today, in the last 24 hours, that I will be honest to say I don't necessarily know the exact answers to, right? We have an idea. We've got a knowledge base, but we really need to walk through this process. We need to put this in and really get hands-on knowledge and then say, “Okay, how is this sustainable?” Answer those questions and then two, how do we expand this, right? What does this look like in different types of areas and environments across the state of Michigan?
Cranson: Yeah, I think that's really well said. I think that we don't know what's out there, what the innovation is, where it where could end, how incredibly creative some people might be, until we ask. The best thing government can do is just try to give them that platform and then see what they can do. I mean, that's what you try to do with all of these projects, right?
Mueller: It is, and it really provides some of the answers that we need as we plan in the future, and we look at these opportunities. We may find that what is this if you're trying to retrofit an existing road network or what does that look like if it's a new reconstruct type? So, those will have pros and cons, and this will allow us the opportunity to evaluate that as we look for this corridor and talk through those things with our different community entities, our, you know, internal agencies and things to walk through all of those and really get our heads around what are those pros and cons and help us build that in the future.
Cranson: Yeah, everybody always makes these references to the Jetsons, you know, when it comes to automated vehicles. Obviously, they didn't need a roadway to charge on because they flew around. I don't know how long ago somebody was seriously thinking about the idea that you could actually be charging your vehicle while you're on the move, but I think it's a really cool thing to think about.
Mueller: It is, and it's really balancing, right? So, how much can you charge on the move? We'll learn that and we'll better understand that based on the different modes of transportation. Then how much do you need to, you know, charge in different environments, right? So, our charging stations and things, you know, we've got other initiatives going that compare with us to really better understand what that picture looks like. Then those that want and choose to go out and buy electric vehicles will have the answers to those questions. They want to know can I get to—one of the biggest things I hear is, “Well, how far can I go? Can I get to my Thanksgiving dinner? Can I get to my cabin up north? Can I go to my, you know, family and out of state?” Those are questions that we have to answer, and people want to be comfortable when they choose to make that purchase and then also make that commute.
Cranson: Right, and I think we have an obligation as a state to support some of our biggest job providers, and that's still automakers and the suppliers, so that's what we're doing. That's a good thing. I think, you know, things are happening so quickly with charging technology not just for vehicles but for everything. I mean, I would love to be completely cordless. I mean, I picture a day when my Varidesk, you know, that I have my computer on is like a pad already built in, and I can just set my phone down anywhere, you know, and it will be charging, and I think that's probably coming.
Mueller: It is, and it's exciting, right? It's exciting to see the advancements, you know, and people really tend to look at the things that make their lives simpler and easier. I think this is an opportunity to do that. If we can charge vehicles as they're moving and allow that to happen and people don't have to always stop to charge and things well, that's great, right? We get them home quicker to their families which—and hopefully safer and provide those opportunities for advanced mobility.
Cranson: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you, Michele, for taking time to explain your part in this process and good luck going forward with it. Obviously, all of us are very interested and we'll be watching closely.
Mueller: Great, thanks, Jeff. Thanks for having me and happy to answer any questions as they come up.
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Cranson: Thank you again for listening to this week's edition of the Talking Michigan Transportation podcast. I would like to thank Randy Debler and Corey Petee for engineering this week's podcast. To subscribe to show notes and more, go to Apple podcasts and search for Talking Michigan Transportation.