As early-November snow accumulates in Michigan, this week’s Talking Michigan Transportation podcast includes conversations about preparing for winter.
First, Mark Geib, MDOT engineer of operations and administrator of statewide maintenance programs, talks about the efforts of MDOT and other road agencies to recruit and train snowplow operators during a pandemic-related work force shortage.
Geib says he and others are looking for ways to reduce the 450,000 tons of salt MDOT uses each year at a cost of about $30 million per year.
Later, veterans of MDOT maintenance forces, Jerry Danforth and Mike Golip, talk about their experiences plowing snow and the need for other vehicle drivers to keep a safe distance.
Geib also discusses innovations MDOT is studying to conserve salt use by using brine and other agricultural products, providing environmental benefits.
MDOT employees Danforth and Golip, who in addition to other maintenance duties have spent a fair amount of time behind the wheel of a snowplow, talk about what they’ve seen from the cab.
For a list of MDOT job postings and to apply online, visit https://www.governmentjobs.com/careers/michigan?keywords=transportation.
As early-November snow accumulates in Michigan, this week’s Talking Michigan Transportation podcast includes conversations about preparing for winter.
First, Mark Geib, MDOT engineer of operations and administrator of statewide maintenance programs, talks about the efforts of MDOT and other road agencies to recruit and train snowplow operators during a pandemic-related work force shortage.
Geib says he and others are looking for ways to reduce the 450,000 tons of salt MDOT uses each year at a cost of about $30 million per year.
Later, veterans of MDOT maintenance forces, Jerry Danforth and Mike Golip, talk about their experiences plowing snow and the need for other vehicle drivers to keep a safe distance.
Geib also discusses innovations MDOT is studying to conserve salt use by using brine and other agricultural products, providing environmental benefits.
MDOT employees Danforth and Golip, who in addition to other maintenance duties have spent a fair amount of time behind the wheel of a snowplow, talk about what they’ve seen from the cab.
For a list of MDOT job postings and to apply online, visit https://www.governmentjobs.com/careers/michigan?keywords=transportation.
[Music]
Jeff Cranson: Welcome to the Talking Michigan Transportation podcast. I'm Jeff Cranson.
[Music]
Cranson: This week, I'll talk about how road agencies are preparing for winter. We're coming out of a pandemic, and we have an ongoing workforce shortage. We talked about that a couple of weeks ago, and that is definitely having some effect on the ability to recruit and train enough plow drivers. But Mark Geib, who is the MDOT engineer of operations and the administrator of statewide maintenance programs, will be here to tell us how they're meeting those challenges and other things about what to expect with managing this winter in Michigan. I did not expect to be talking about this so soon. It's November 2, and we're already getting snow accumulating in northern Michigan, which is a good thing if you're into winter sports but also presents challenges in terms of keeping the roads clear and people getting where they need to be. Later, I'll talk to a couple of seasoned MDOT maintenance workers who, in addition to other duties, have spent a fair amount of time behind the wheel of a snowplow. They are Jerry Danforth and Mike Golip, and they'll be with us after Mark. So, again, first, I’ll be talking with Mark Geib. Mark, thank you for taking time to do this again. Tell me what you're saying in terms of plow drivers and hiring drivers and what MDOT faces and the local agencies that also have to hire plow drivers.
Mark Geib: Yeah, I mean we've had okay success with getting the people we need for the winter, but we have struggled a little bit. Some parts of the state are struggling a little more than other ones are, but, you know, part of this I think is due to the economy like every everybody's been reading. There's a lot of competition out there in the private sector for workers that have CDLs and are able to drive snowplows. But, you know, overall, I think we're in pretty good shape. We do get some of our people from the contracting industry, and they're still out there working. Although that'll be coming to an end soon because of winter coming. So, I think that'll provide us a little more of a pool of people that we’ll be able to hire to get us through the winter.
Cranson: When you talk about direct forces, I think we've tried to explain this before but, you know, most of the motoring public probably thinks that all those snowplows they see on the state routes belong to MDOT, but in reality, about two-thirds of our counties—is that number about right?
Geib: It's almost three-quarters, or 63 counties, yeah.
Cranson: So, three-quarters of our counties are contract agencies that do the plowing on the state routes for MDOT.
Geib: Yeah, that's correct. Yeah, with our own with our own MDOT employees we do about 25% of the state roads and interstates. The counties do, you know, more or less the other 75%. We do have a private contract down in Monroe County right now that will be going on for another year, roughly, and then we'll have state employees down there also.
Cranson: But what are you hearing from the local agencies? I mean, they've got to be facing the same problems as they gear up and have to hire drivers, or do more of them have, you know, full-time workers that are there year-round?
Geib: They have a little bit more full-time than us, but they do hire temporary also. And it's a little bit of a mixed bag. Some of them are having some problems, other ones are doing better. It depends partially on geographical location because even people that work in the farming industry, you know, when you're in the rural areas and when they get done, some of them are available to come out and plow snow in the winter too. So, the pool of people available is a little different depending on what part of the state you're in.
Cranson: Part of this is training to drive something other than your own personal vehicle. A plow is a big, heavy vehicle. Talk a little bit about that and about the training and, you know, obtaining a Commercial Driver's License. What's involved in that?
Geib: Well, yeah, I mean ideally, we're looking for people—actually that's what we need right now is we need people with Commercial Driver’s License, you know, that would be people that are driving over the road trucks, for instance, and they typically have CDLs. But we bring people in, and we train them. We have a training school in the in the fall. So, we have a classroom portion, and we have a driving portion. A lot of the temporary employees we get, the ones that we hire just for the winter, are returning, so they're in pretty good shape. Although a lot of times we’ll give them the training also, so they brush up on everything. But it's a lot of responsibility driving, you know, that large of a vehicle down the road, mixing with traffic. And, you know, there's a lot of people that are driving at various speeds, some of them semi, some of them cars, and we've got to make sure that everything we're doing, you know, everything they're trained for is to be as safe as possible when clearing the snow and ice from the roads.
Cranson: So, here it is, barely November and you probably saw that northern Michigan got some snow overnight. You live in the southwest part of the state, and that's the part you're familiar with. That's also where we have the most direct forces, MDOT forces, doing the plowing, and that's where you hire the most drivers. Are we going to be ready for that that first big lake effect? I mean, when it comes to downstate snow, that's really the snow belt where you are.
Geib: Yeah, we'll be ready for it. I mean, we are a little short of drivers right now, but we have enough of the experienced people. And we've got extremely talented workers and maintenance truck drivers that are very capable of stepping up. A lot of them have been doing this for many years, so they kind of know their hot spots. We watch weather radar. We have what's called a Maintenance Decision Support System. It's called MBSS, which kind of helps us with gauging what to expect, you know. It gets data from our weather outlets of pavement temperature, air temperature, barometric pressure, and all that. And it helps employees make a little bit better decisions on, you know, how and when to salt and stuff like that.
Cranson: So, talk about salt, since you bring it up, and what we can expect this year that's different. We've got some legislation that has us piloting, studying other things other than just salt. Mainly, I think you're seeing some success with brine, and I know some other states have seen success with that in terms of mixing the salt with water, pre-treating, making it go farther. Can you talk about that process?
Geib: Yeah, sure. This year, we're going to be doing pilots in three locations. Two of them are our own state forces in Mount Pleasant and Grand Ledge, and then we're also working in partnership with Montcalm County. And we did this last winter with them, and we'll be continuing it again this winter. Basically, what it is, you know, as most people see, is that we put rock salt down on the road, and that helps to melt the ice so we can make the pavement, you know, the friction is as good as possible in the wintertime. So, what we're piloting is basically mixing up a brine solution, which is basically 23% salt to water. Then we'll be putting that brine directly down on the roadway, which will provide, you know, so far in experience, it provides a little bit better level of service. In other words, it'll melt the snow, when we do it correctly, a little bit quicker and the ice a little bit quicker. The potential, from what we've heard from other states, and we even saw a little bit of this in our pilot last year, is that you can save an enormous amount of salt totally. We spend between $25 and $30 million dollars a year on salt to clear the state roads and interstates, and the other states have told us where they're using it somewhat aggressively that they've been able to see savings of around 40% less salt usage. So, you know, if you get a little bit better service level, you know, it clears slightly faster, you can save the amount of salt you use, and clearly, we're doing a good thing for the environment by putting in less salt, and we're saving money.
Cranson: Talk about why it's an environmental benefit. I don't know that instinctively everyone understands how much of that salt makes its way into the tributaries.
Geib: Well, that's basically what it is. You can imagine that in a typical winter we put down—now this varies because, you know, sometimes we have light winter, sometimes heavy, but we average putting down about 450,000 tons of salt every winter. And that salt ends up going, you know, into the ground. It goes into the ground water to some extent, and a percentage of it can work its way into the tributaries and, you know, rivers and streams and then into lakes and stuff. And it increases the salinity level and, you know, that's not natural to the environment to have these salinity levels change. So, it can potentially hurt aquatic life and, you know, plant life too, so any amount that we can reduce is good. I mean, we've been doing a lot of things to reduce our salt usage with innovations over the years, and this is another really big one, so we want to continually be aggressive and do this. Also, you know, you mentioned the legislation, part of the legislation is asking us to use different agricultural byproducts. Now we've always used an agricultural byproduct. It's typically been corn based, but we're going to be looking at other ones, beet based and possibly other things also that we can use. Basically, when you add those products, it will lower the freezing point a little bit, so we can actually treat ice at colder temperatures, so that's one of the benefits. There's a cost factor because it does cost more to use that material, so we just do what we can do to manage it as prudently as possible.
Cranson: Well, that's another thing. I do want to get back to that that savings from what we can do with more efficiency of salt but talk a little bit about what we found and why it is that salt just doesn't work once it gets below a certain temperature.
Geib: Well, yeah, I mean the general rule of thumb is that when the temperatures are below 15 degrees Fahrenheit, generally speaking, salt does not work that well and or at all, especially in the real cold temperatures. So, you're putting it down and it's not doing anything. So, that's completely wasteful and also, you know, one of the things we train our drivers at. And it's an art and a science, but we have to be careful about salting the road depending on whether temperatures are raising and lowering, and sometimes they're doing both. First, they'll go one way then the other. If we don't salt correctly, we can actually, you know, melt the ice, but then it can re-freeze again and actually potentially make conditions worse. So, we're really careful to not do that and to salt only at the at the correct times. And then in these very cold conditions we can't salt. It's not going to do any good at all, and it potentially could do some harm both with later on refreezing or just flat out wasting the salt and putting it down, you know, for no reason at all, which of course, doesn't make sense and is not prudent.
Cranson: There was an era, like everything I suppose, just like, you know, fossil fuels that we just thought resources were infinite. You're never going to run out. And there was probably a time where people felt that way about salt that, you know, they weren't thinking about the environment. And they were thinking, you know, the more the better, right? So, just get out there and salt like crazy.
Geib: Yeah.
Cranson: How long has it been that you feel like, you know, people in your role have become more enlightened about the impact of salt?
Geib: Well, you know, it's probably been the last two decades, you know, a good 20 years or so. I mean, we've brought on a lot of innovations where we work a lot harder calibrating trucks, making sure the right amounts are going down. We're using these software programs like MDSS, the Maintenance Decision Support System, to help us make better decisions where there's sort of an algorithm running that will tell you, you know, how much salt you should be putting down or whether you should even be putting it down depending on the conditions in your area. We have different types of spreaders. That's the portion on the back of the truck that actually applies the salt to the pavement. So, those have been getting refined over time to where we're putting it down more efficiently and getting down the exact amount we want in the exact area or part of the road where we want it and where it's going to have the greatest effect. And then it's just been a lot of education with, you know, making sure that all of our employees understand, that we understand. And then we work with other states. We look at what other states are doing, and when they come up with the best practice or we do, we try to share best practices. So, in the end, we're making the road as safe as possible for the traveling public, and we're doing it as efficiently and cost effectively as possible.
Cranson: So, if we can gain that 40% efficiency that you're talking about, and we spend on average $30 million dollars a year on salt, are you saying we could save as much as $12 million dollars a year?
Geib: That's correct, yeah.
Cranson: That's significant.
Geib: Yeah, it's huge, and again, we're putting that much less salt down into the environment, so nature can handle it a little bit better if we put less down.
Cranson: So, talk about the term “black ice.” I’ve come to believe that that's, you know, much like we talk about crash versus accident and taking the responsibility off the driver for the behavior that actually results in crashes, you hear people say, “Well, it was black ice, like, nothing I could do, you know, I didn't know it was going to be icy. I couldn't see it.” So, what do you think about that term?
Geib: Well, I mean, in the end, people have the responsibility, really from a practical standpoint and from a legal standpoint, to drive to the conditions. And black ice is simply a thin coat of ice that you can't see very well. That's why they call it black. It disappears into the dark or black pavement in the night or whatever. So, you know, people, especially early in the season when we're getting used to driving in these inclement conditions, have to assume the road surface, you know, may have ice on it. And as a lot of people know from driving, you can be driving in an area where there is not any ice or the pavement is in good condition, and then all of a sudden it can ice up on you. And that's where a lot of people get in trouble. They're driving, they get complacent. But the weather in Michigan comes down, I mean, even lake effect comes down in streaks. So, there'll be one area that's not getting anything, and then all of a sudden there's a wall of snow and you are getting something. So, the condition of the pavement does vary, and people need to understand that. So, it's just prudent to slow down keep, you know, keep a good distance from the people around you, and not take chances because it's very difficult to keep everything perfect all the time. You really can't do it, but we do our best to try to.
Cranson: Well, yeah, you try to balance mobility and safety, and yeah, it's delicate. I also have to say that I have a little bit of anxiety about going into this winter. Last winter, we were still, you know, in the throes of the pandemic, driving hadn't returned to, you know, pre-pandemic levels. Now it largely has across the state, and we know that people started speeding like crazy and driving more carelessly during the pandemic. And we don't have any reason to think that's going to change this winter. So, yeah, I hope that everybody heeds exactly what you're saying. Thanks, Mark. Is there anything else you want to tell us going into winter 21, 22?
Geib: No, I don't think so. I think we've covered everything well. I mean, my final note would be, you know, we've had that saying, “Please don't crowd the plow.” So, when you see plows out there, stay back from them. Let them do their jobs. It's unsafe to get too close to a plow anyway, so people give distance to the plow drivers. They're just trying to get the road clear to make it safe for everybody and make it passable.
Cranson: Very good point. Thanks again, Mark.
Geib: You're very welcome. Thank you, Jeff.
Cranson: I’ll be back in a minute with the people who know what life is like behind the wheel of a snowplow with Jerry Danforth and Mike Golip. Stay with us. We'll have more on the other side of this important message.
Male Narrator: Did you know Newton's first law of motion states that a body in motion will continue moving at the same speed and same direction? While the second law states that an object acted upon by the force will undergo—
Female Narrator: Wait! I thought this was a snowplow safety message.
Male Narrator: It is, which is why this is relevant.
Female Narrator: Don't you think that's complicating things just a bit?
Male Narrator: Not at all. A snowplow weighs 17 times more than your average car.
Female Narrator: Right, and snowplows tend to travel at slower than posted speeds.
Male Narrator: So, the third law states that action and reaction are equal and opposite.
Female Narrator: I think it's easier just to remind motorists to give plows the room they need to do their jobs, follow at a safe distance, and don't drive into snow clouds, things like that.
Male Narrator: Well, if you're going to make it that simple, why don't you just say don't crowd the plow?
Female Narrator: Great idea. Stay safe this winter. Don't crowd the plow.
Male Narrator: That's it?
Female Narrator: Yeah, that's it.
Cranson: I should mention that because working in highway maintenance means being on the road, I caught Mike and Jerry while they were busy working. They were gracious enough to exit the highway and find a safe place that they could talk to me, but because of the remote location, the audio is a little rough in some spots, and I apologize for that. For the second segment today, I’m going to be speaking with Jerry Danforth, who right now is working almost exclusively on setting up some new garages in Monroe County and administering a contract there with the private vendor that's doing the plowing, but he has a lot of experience in maintenance and winter maintenance and plowing. And he's accompanied by Mike Golip, who is also a seasoned maintenance worker who has a lot of experience on the roads. Mike, Jerry thank you for joining.
Jerry Danforth: Happy to be here.
Cranson: What I really wanted to focus on, I talked to Mark Geib earlier about statewide challenges, you know, hiring drivers this year is harder than ever. We're still coming out of a pandemic, and you've heard all the stories about the great resignation and the workforce challenges everywhere. But I wanted to get the experience on the ground from folks that have been in the cab during some of these heavy winter storms and what it's like and some of the close calls that you've seen and, you know, just what it's like being behind that plow when traffic is whizzing by, and people are impatient, as they always are. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Danforth: Oh yeah, well, between Mike and I, we both have many years experience in the plow trucks that we drive for the department. And I’m sure you probably heard of the old phrase, “Don't crowd the plow,” and that is that is something that I just wanted to kind of instill on the listeners because that very statement rings true, especially with us here in the department they have to drive these rigs. It's challenging for us to do what we got to do in the cab and to try to get our job done in addition to dealing with the public that's zipping by us faster than posted speeds on many occasions. Ultimately, they're trying to get to their destination. But a lot of times it doesn't fare so well, and they end up off in a ditch somewhere ahead of us.
Cranson: What do you find when you talk to people, you know, friends or relatives about what you do during the winter, especially obviously, and what surprises them most about your job?
Mike Golip: I would feel that most people think that it would be exciting to drive a snowplow because you're in this big truck. And I think that it surprises them when you have to explain that it's actually a fairly dangerous job. You're driving a very large, heavy truck, and you're only out in snow and ice with it. And, you know, getting around people that have had accidents can be difficult. And then the people that are in such a hurry that, you know, they tend to try to pass you in dangerous places and things. And most of the public are people that don't drive heavy equipment or, you know, avoid driving in bad weather. They don't understand how, you know, dangerous it can be out there for us. It's a tough job. You're out there for long hours. And you're always in the bad weather whereas, you know, people are just driving in the bad weather to get home from work that day and we'll be out the entire storm. So, you have many occasions where, you know, the public tries to crowd you. They push you around. And I have to be careful that, you know, I don't hit someone who is driving like that, so it is fairly dangerous out there.
Cranson: Yeah, I mean, we all have to pay close attention and keep our eyes on what we're doing, but you guys I think it goes about 10-fold for. You just have no margin for error, basically.
Danforth: No, when there's an error, it usually comes at a price. These trucks can easily find themselves in a ditch too if they're not conscientious of what they're doing. We got to watch our speeds. We got to, you know, maintain a safe distance between the traveling public, and that's always challenging because they're always trying to dart around us. I’ve had cars pass us in the direction in which we're throwing the snow, so you always got to be prepared for the unexpected.
Cranson: Yeah, talk a little bit about when somebody says that they want to do this. What do you say to both try to be encouraging but also set expectations?
Golip: Training new people is always interesting because they usually come from often a truck driving background. And they have some experience in bad weather, but to come in to be a snowplow driver you have to be very conscious of what you're doing all the time. It's a job where you don't get to relax while you're driving, like, say, you would in an over the road truck where you get a long day of just driving. Out here we have to basically dodge cars and stay on top of the roadway all the time. And it's always long hours and bad weather. So, I mean, if you want to come on board, you have to be prepared for those type of days and experiences where at the end of the day sometimes you're glad to get out of that plow truck. So, it's not all glamour. It's not always, you know, fun and exciting. It can make for a long day. So, when new people come in, I don't try to discourage anyone, but I need them to be aware that, you know, it's not just driving to the store. You're busy. There are about 14 to 18 functions inside those trucks that you have to do the whole day. It's constant. You have a console and levers and just non-stop things to do. You're very busy in there. So, like I said, I don't try to discourage anyone, but I do make them aware that it's not a walk in the park driving those trucks.
Cranson: That's well said, Mike. Is there anything you want to add to that, Jerry?
Danforth: No, Mike articulates it pretty well. It's, you know, you get these new guys in there and they want to come in here and try to save the world. It can be a fun job, but it's stressful. Then you're working for long days and long nights on many occasions, you know, because a lot of our storms are coming in at nighttime. It wears on you. And, you know, the new guys they want to get out there and beat it up, and we encourage that. We want them to get out there, but we want them to be safe. And if we could just allude back to what I said earlier: “Don't crowd the plow.” Let us get our jobs done, and we can make the roads safer for everybody.
Cranson: Which roads are the toughest? I mean, instinctively, I would think that the two lanes, obviously, would be a lot more difficult than the freeways and the interstates, but is it that simple?
Danforth: Well, I guess everybody's going to have their own take on that, Jeff. But personally, I think the most challenging roads are the freeways. You got a lot of traffic coming in and on and off the ramps there, a lot of cars moving about around you. And, you know, the department obviously wants to promote mobility. Well, in order to get mobility, we need to get out there and get the job done. We just need that space, that buffer zone, if you will, for the traveling public just to honor that so we can open up them roads. But I think by far the freeways are the most challenging for me.
Golip: Interchanges.
Danforth: Yeah, right, Mike. Good point.
Cranson: Yeah, so we all want our 20 minute to commute to be 20 minutes no matter what time of year or what time of day, you know, what's going on, whether there's road work in the summer season or whether there's snow in the winter. And we want our roads to be dry, and clear of snow and ice, and free of potholes. And, you know, all of that has to wear on you guys after a while knowing that you're out there working as hard as you are and yet the public is frustrated with any kind of delay or any kind of poor road. How do, you how, process that?
Golip: Well, you got you got to understand, you know, as just a regular traveler of the motoring public, whatever you want to call them, I understand that they want to get home from work. And I’m at work so, that little bit of inconvenience, I’m providing a safe way for them to get where they're going. Where if we're not out there, you know, the 10 minutes longer it's going to take you could take you an hour longer. Yeah, you just got to understand that, you know, a short setback or having to be stuck behind the plow for a few extra minutes is actually making your day safer than it would if we were not out there.
Cranson: Yeah, that's really good. Is there anything else either one of you guys want to add? This has been helpful I think and gives people a little bit of insight inside the cab.
Danforth: No, just to watch for these trucks, and try not to pass us on the direction we're throwing the snow. I’ve seen so many times where they drive by us and drive through that windrow of snow. And a lot of times they get through it, and they're just kind of giving you the stink eye.
Cranson: [Laughing] Yeah.
Danforth: Or they're going off into the ditches. So, you know, just give us that space. But we're dealing with challenges all the time out here, especially recruiting people. And anybody that is in earshot that would love to get involved in driving one of these rigs, I encourage them to apply. The department offers great training to individuals that want to come on board.
Cranson: Yeah, we'll include some links in the show notes to those things too. Well, thank you guys. Thank you for doing what you do and for taking time to explain this. I really appreciate it.
Danforth: No problem, Jeff. I appreciate you having us.
Golip: Yeah, not a problem. Thank you.
[Music]
Cranson: Thank you again for listening to this week's edition of the Talking Michigan Transportation podcast. I would like to thank Randy Debler and Corey Petee for engineering this week's podcast. To subscribe to show notes and more, go to Apple podcasts and search for Talking Michigan Transportation.