Talking Michigan Transportation
The Talking Michigan Transportation podcast features conversations with transportation experts inside and outside MDOT and will touch on anything and everything related to mobility, including rail, transit and the development of connected and automated vehicles.
Talking Michigan Transportation
How public transportation fuels economic development
On this week’s edition of the Talking Michigan Transportation podcast, a conversation about legislation that would appropriate economic development funds for community-based programs, including public transportation.
This week’s guest, Jared Fleisher, who leads government affairs and economic development for Rock (Dan Gilbert’s family of companies), explains why he’s passionate about the proposed bills and their potential to enhance qualify of life across Michigan and attract and retain talent.
On Tuesday, June 4, Fleisher testified in support of the bills before the House Economic Development and Small Business Committee. He framed the issue as an economic development imperative as Michigan is among states struggling to grow its population.
Others supporting the legislation include Oakland County Executive Dave Coulter, the Michigan Municipal League, Traverse Connect, Mass Transportation Authority Flint, Market Van Buren, The Rapid, Renovare Development, the Michigan Public Transit Association, Transportation Riders United, SMART, and International Union of Operating Engineers Local 324.
Also discussed:
- How public transportation has helped transform Grand Rapids, with The Rapid’s many options including the state’s first bus rapid transit lines.
- Investments in infrastructure like bus rapid transit and M-1 rail spur development.
Hello, welcome to the Talking Michigan Transportation Podcast. I'm Jeff Cranson.
Jared Fleisher:There's never been more of a clarion call that we need a strategy. Right now, our strategy is West Virginia. It's not a good strategy. That's the why, the how, the how is we need to get out of this either or and we got to do both and we need to attract high wage jobs. We need jobs. We also need to invest in the kind of vibrant communities and community infrastructure that make people want to live here. Stay here, because without talent, you don't have business. Without business, there's nowhere for talent to work. We need both.
Jeff Cranson:That opening clip was Jared Fleisher, who leads government affairs and economic development for Rock, Dan Gilbert's family of companies. Jared was in Lansing Tuesday to testify before the House Economic Development Committee on a package of bills that would shift some funds from SOAR and traditional economic development models to other community-based things, in this case, specifically transit and he had some very interesting and passionate things to say during that testimony. So I spoke with him about it and why he feels so strongly about this and why he thinks this could really be transformative perhaps an overused word, but one that applies here for much of the state of Michigan. So I hope you enjoy the conversation. So once again, as promised, I'm here with Jared Fleisher, who leads government affairs and economic development for Rock, which is Dan Gilbert's family of companies. Jared, thanks for taking time to do this.
Jared Fleisher:It's my pleasure.
Jeff Cranson:So first talk a little bit about your background and the work that you do and how that dovetails with your passion for public transportation.
Jared Fleisher:You know I was born and raised in Los Angeles.
Jared Fleisher:I went to Harvard and Harvard Law School and was a Washington lawyer and by circumstance I ended up doing some work for Dan Gilbert and built a relationship and fell in love with what he was doing in the state of Detroit and he convinced me to move to the city and it was the best thing I ever did, because being part of the transformation of the city something that's positive, that is tangible, that's happening every day is a great way to spend your professional life. But when I was a lawyer in Washington, I represented local governments and economic development groups and transportation authorities and I ended up doing a lot of work for transit clients, including the Denver Regional Transportation District, when building out. You know Denver Union Station and their line to the airport and you know various, various lines and I just I saw firsthand how transformative those investments were. And you know, just watched as Denver went from a somewhat sleepy community to be in. You know the place that every young person wanted to be. You know in the Intermountain West and some farther away.
Jared Fleisher:And farther away Exactly. I think you may even have a daughter. Who can, you know, uh, testify to that?
Jeff Cranson:Absolutely so. Yeah, um, I've ridden that light rail from the airport to downtown Denver and it's pretty darn cool. You're right. Um, so why do you think it's been? I guess you know, coming here from somewhere else and watching Detroit evolve, why do you think it's been so difficult in Michigan, I mean the? The simple answer we always think is because we're the auto state and we were all about cars. But it's got to be more than that, right.
Jared Fleisher:You know what, it is more than that. I do think that that's a part of the story. You know, we obviously had the most advanced interurban streetcar system in the 1950s in the country and then, you know, as we kind of became the car capital of the world, we, you know, we tore up the tracks or buried the tracks and really, you know, built a built environment that was oriented around the automobile. Right, you know big roads, you know low density over large areas, but you know that can't be the totality of the explanation, because in Los Angeles they did the same thing. You know, in the, in the fifties they tore up all the rail tracks and the streetcar tracks. But yet they, you know, in recent times, realized that they needed transit to deal with, you know, congestion, to give folks mobility options to, you know, provide, you know, options for folks who, you know, are coming out of college, can't afford a car, working job where they're trying to build up to be able to have more resources. But they need transit now. Young people that don't want to be dealing with parking, paying for parking, paying for car, paying for car insurance, wanting to go out and drink and have a good time, and that's not compatible with driving. So you see, other communities that even had our history nonetheless in recent decades make substantial investments in transit.
Jared Fleisher:I think that we've been hobbled in our region by a few things. Number one a lot comes down to leadership. I give great credit to Dave Coulter and to Warren Evans and Mike Duggan, who the leadership that we have in place currently in southeast Michigan knows we have to make these investments to attract talent, retain talent and grow. So a lot of it is leadership. But we have that leadership in place now and I think the Los Angeles and other communities in Denver that you know kind of made these investments starting, you know, really seriously, you know, 20 something years ago. We're very, very late to the game. We had the leadership in place. Now that sees the importance of it, but kind of the the psychology you know, or the opposition became very, very entrenched and it's just a higher hill to climb.
Jeff Cranson:Yeah, climb. Yeah. Well, I think that you made this point in your testimony and Representative Kofia from Traverse City made the same point that this is not just about Southeast Michigan, it's not just about Grand Rapids or the big cities south of US 10. This is going to be transformative for the entire state and there's lots of rural agencies that rely on transit too. Because you've been obviously Detroit focused in your efforts, can you talk about that, why it's bigger than just Detroit?
Jared Fleisher:Absolutely. So. You know, the most important thing is we want to meet the actual needs of different regions in the state, and northern Michigan is different than southeast Michigan. Southwest Michigan is different than metro Detroit. Right, the more rural areas are different than you know, than the more urban areas of our state. So what the legislation that the hearing was on says is listen, we're not gonna tell you top down what you do. You're gonna tell us bottom up so those regions can say this is our top mobility priority in terms of making our region more attractive place to live, work and play. This is our top mobility priority. That's tied to our growth strategy for our region. For example, in Traverse City and in Marquette, their top priority may well be an airport expansion, if you think about it. Marquette's a wonderful, beautiful place, traverse City too, but it's far from a lot of other places. If they want to grow as a place to live for folks who have remote work, play, for tourism, they need air service and this bill is flexible to allow each community to invest in the transformational mobility project that they need.
Jared Fleisher:In southeast Michigan, we do think it's transit. We do think that if you build a high-quality bus rapid transit line on Woodward Avenue, the main spine of our region, from Detroit to Pontiac. Just think about what that could mean with dedicated lane, nice stations For everybody who lives in the region. You've got to go downtown to a ball game or to go out to a ball game or to go out to a concert or just to have a good time. You don't have to worry about driving, spending $40 in parking, having a few beers. You can do what the rest of the country does and have high quality transit take you there. And what you see when you build that kind of high quality transit is that development goes around it. And what do we need to do to grow? We need dense, walkable communities in our metropolitan areas. It's a key part of our state growth strategy and if you have that kind of high quality transit on Woodward Avenue, you know you create kind of these anchors or hubs to do dense mixed use development and dense development is how you grow our state.
Jared Fleisher:Going out to the airport obviously is another big thing for our region. If we could actually imagine, if we could have, you know, the amtrak line that currently connects, you know, downtown detroit and dearborn, or ford's headquarter, michigan central station, with their opening today the airport ann arbor. Imagine if we had more frequent service on that existing commuter rail line where you could reliably and quickly get on a commuter rail line between ann arbor, that major economic hub, you know, uh, airport, dearborn, train station downtown. Imagine what that would mean for our region's economy. At the same time, northern Michigan is different. Air service is what they need. Air service is what they can get.
Jeff Cranson:Yeah, well, along those lines there's been studies and discussion of a rail line between Ann Arbor and Traverse City. That would go a long way too. Absolutely, absolutely. That commuter corridor you're talking about that would incorporate the airport downtown has been a dream for a long time and that would make a huge difference. And when you talk about a mesh system where M1 rail, the people mover and then a BRT could all work to complement each other, I mean you've already seen what M1 rail has done for the Woodward corridor, for that segment of the corridor in terms of that investment and that density. So I mean there's evidence out there right of the corridor in terms of that investment and that density.
Jared Fleisher:So I mean there's evidence out there, right? I mean there's been, you know, something like $8 billion of investment on the Woodward Corridor since the M1 rail, you know, came in and listen, it's not you know the silver bullet. You build it and automatically this development happens. Right, you have to have you know the right, you know land use policies and the right leadership and vision. But there's just no question. I mentioned earlier in my remarks here that I worked in Washington DC where, when I lived in Washington DC, I lived actually in Northern Virginia, just outside of Washington DC, on the Orange Line. And there's a picture of the Orange Line before they built the metro and it looks just like cow pastures. And then you take satellite view of the Orange Line today, northern Virginia, going into Washington DC, and it is giant hubs of development around each of the metro stations.
Jared Fleisher:With the right land use policies, you can leverage these transportation hubs to do dense mixed-use development, and dense mixed-use development is how you grow, because it's literally dense concentrations of people. Dense mixed-use development and dense mixed-use development is how you grow because you can. You know, it's literally dense concentrations of people. But more than that, young people, talented people, that's what they want. They want to live in a neighborhood where you know they can walk to a bar, they can walk to, you know, a restaurant, they can walk and do a little bit of shopping. You know they want that, you know all of that at their footsteps. And you know, by building these dense, transit-oriented neighborhoods, you know you not only grow our state, you not only keep our kids here, you not only attract talent here, you add all that up into what we need to do.
Jared Fleisher:We're 49th in the nation in population growth, 49th in the nation. So, guys, we got to change what we're doing. It's not working. And I'll kind of go back to the very first question you asked me. You know why is it taking us so long? I would say, you know, let's look at you know we, over this period we have stagnated in population prosperity. We're second to last in the nation of population growth.
Jeff Cranson:Maybe we got to do some of these things that we haven't been doing if we're going to change our trajectory. Yeah, no, I think you made that point. I kind of wondered if we're enough generations removed now from. I mean, everybody knows about the great migration, but along with that, a heck of a lot of people made their way to Detroit and industrial cities from Appalachia. So you've got people in your midst who are probably third, fourth generation people from West Virginia, and I wonder what they think when they hear that reference, because you're right on with it for sure.
Jared Fleisher:I mean no disrespect. We could be 49th to anybody. Being 49th or 50th is not where you want to be.
Jeff Cranson:Yeah, that's exactly right. We will continue the conversation right after a quick break.
Jared Fleisher:Know before you go. Head on over to MiDrive to check out the latest on road construction and possible delays along your route. For a detailed map, head over to Michigan. gov/D rive.
Jeff Cranson:Talk a little bit about that. I guess what you have found in talking to younger generations about why this is important to them. I mean, who are the people buying those condos in Midtown or Corktown? I see the prices and I'm like where do those people work? How do they do that? But those are the people that would say they want viable public transportation right.
Jared Fleisher:And listen. One of the reasons that our state is stagnating in population and prosperity is because we are losing talented young professionals and we are not attracting talented young professionals. The folks who are most mobile in today's economy are young people who have options. Right, educated, talented young folks. They're the ones who are moving and you know we grow them here, we educate them at the University of Michigan or Michigan State or wherever it is, and then Chicago or New York or, you know, Texas or California or Denver, you know, or Nashville or Charlotte benefit from our investment in growing this talent. So we opt to raise statewide prosperity. We need to have a strategy that keeps talented young people here and attracts talented young people. They have choices. So what do they want? You got to think of it like a product. You want to convince somebody to buy your product. Your product is Michigan. You got to give them what they want in the product. And what do they want? You know they want dense, vibrant communities that have transit auctions. That's what they want. They want good paying jobs. You know high wage, you know often high tech jobs.
Jared Fleisher:So this package the transit piece, as you know, is the mobility piece is part of a bigger package that tries to do all of this invest in bringing high-tech, high-wage jobs, invest in building vibrant communities through programs that support downtown revitalization, investing in main streets, town centers, waterfronts. That's the second piece of the package. The third piece of the package is affordable housing. He mentioned the high-priced condos in Midtown. Well, I'll tell you what we have a much bigger catchment if we can also invest in attainable housing. You know we have a much bigger band of folks we can keep here and bring here. And then the fourth piece is the transit mobility. But you put them all together and it's basically saying what do we need to do to be successful? We need to attract and retain these people. How do we do it? High wage jobs, vibrant communities, transit options and, in many cases, attainable housing.
Jeff Cranson:Well, speaking of transit options, it's definitely a point of pride here in Grand Rapids, in a friendly geographic way, that they had the state's first BRT and they have two now.
Jared Fleisher:Yeah, and I was talking to the director of the Rapid and you know, you think about who transit is for, of the rapid and, uh, you know, you think about, you know who transit is for. The most popular, successful line of Grand Rapids is the Laker line that takes all the students to Grand Valley. You know, um, so this is, you know, the investments literally we talk about. You know, uh, attracting, retaining, talent.
Jeff Cranson:These investments are literally used by students to go to college. Yeah, no, you couldn't have a campus out in Ottawa County tied to a campus downtown without it. Now it's really important. I liked the reference you made to the seesawing economic development strategy in the state. Talk about what that means.
Jared Fleisher:So Michigan is schizophrenic on economic development. We are a pendulum that goes one way and then swings hard back. You know, the other way. As you know, political party control changes or we do something and then we're like, oh no, no, we're kind of victims of our own success. You know, we invest in SOAR and we got these big, you know. You know giant manufacturing and battery plants and other advanced energy plants and oh, now we got to stop because we did it. It's the worst possible approach to long-term prosperity to have ever-changing short-term strategies. Like I said in my testimony, if anybody wants to be great at anything you want to be a great basketball player you better get at that free throw line. You better shoot a lot of free throws. You better be committed to it for the long term and focused on what you're doing.
Jeff Cranson:And you made a piano player reference there, and so I'm guessing you've read Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers and that's where that came from, the 10,000 hours theory.
Jared Fleisher:That's exactly right, and we're at a tipping point too, to just keep the references coming right now. But to put that in concrete terms, the state's economic, the current economic programs expire next year, and where we are right now is so talk about CSUN. We're actually going to go right off a cliff because they expire and at this moment where the population commission is pointing out that we're 49th in the nation, that our median income has dropped from 120 percent of the national average to 90 percent of the national average, not only are we going to go off a cliff, but we have no way forward. We have no way forward. So for folks listening to this, for your leaders in the state government, we're at this inflection point, this critically important point for the future of our state.
Jared Fleisher:And what's the answer? We're just going to do nothing. We're literally just going to fight with each other and have no vision and strategy going forward. Or we have a comprehensive plan right here that invests in all the things that we know we need to grow High-wage jobs, affordable housing, vibrant communities, transit and mobility solutions. You know, it's a comprehensive package, it's on the table and it's long term. It's long term. And the alternative again the alternative is that we, like I think I said in my testimony you know we go off a cliff, we end up at a dead end.
Jeff Cranson:That's the alternative. I also think it's symbolic. You know, setting aside whether any given agency thinks you know this is enough money for considering their needs, you know whether it's the cities or the northern t his says this is the legislature and state leaders are very serious about, about transit and public transportation, and that's important too, I think. Tell me, I guess what, with all these things you've talked about in the cliff, and you know some of these depressing metaphors, what makes you bullish on Detroit and on Michigan for its future?
Jared Fleisher:I think Michigan has tremendous potential you know a lot of the broadest dynamics about population movements. You know a lot of them are under our control. But there are some macro things. You know, uh, for a very long time you know, uh, people moved to the sunbelt, right, and you know um policy matters but the sun matters too, right?
Jared Fleisher:And they want our water, they want our. So my point in saying that is you know I don't know if you've been paying attention to the weather, but it's, you know, 120 degrees in the summer in Phoenix and in Houston. I really do believe that. You know, Michigan is, I mean, it's very pleasant, very pleasant place to be, compared to 120 degrees in Phoenix. You know, it's a beautiful state, like you said, with fresh water everywhere. You know, green everywhere. It's a beautiful state. It's a relatively affordable state. It's a state that has the potential to have great cities right, I mean great bones and so much progress in Detroit and Grand Rapids. We have the potential for greatness but again, to go back to the analogy of the piano player, you can have the potential for greatness and not put in the time and do the right things, and you're not going to be a very good piano player. We have the potential. We've got to put in the time and do the right things to achieve our potential.
Jeff Cranson:Yeah, well said, Jared. I think often it takes a transplant to really appreciate what we have here.
Jared Fleisher:I love it here. I love the city of Detroit, I love Grand Rapids. I love you know, going north into the beautiful towns up there and the lakes, it's an incredible state. And you know we owe it to you know what God gave us and to our children, to you know, realize this potential.
Jeff Cranson:Very well said. Thank you very much. We'll have to talk again sometime and see how these bills proceed. I'd like to thank you once more for tuning in to Talking Michigan Transportation. You can find show notes and more on Apple Podcasts or Buzzsprout. I also want to acknowledge the talented people who help make this a reality each week, starting with Randy Debler, who skillfully edits the audio, Jesse Ball, who proofs the content, Courtney Bates, who posts the podcast to various platforms, and Jacke Salinas, who transcribes the audio to make it accessible to all.