Talking Michigan Transportation
The Talking Michigan Transportation podcast features conversations with transportation experts inside and outside MDOT and will touch on anything and everything related to mobility, including rail, transit and the development of connected and automated vehicles.
Talking Michigan Transportation
A veteran automotive reporter talks EV sales, charging networks and more
On this week’s edition of the Talking Michigan Transportation podcast, Joann Muller, a Detroit-based reporter for Axios covering all things mobility, talks about electric vehicle (EV) sales, progress on developing charging networks, consumers buying smaller vehicles, and her experience with a new device that converts a conventional bicycle to an e-bike.
- According to a new report, sales of battery-powered models across America are up compared to the rest of the industry. The boost has been spurred on by price cuts, tax breaks and other incentives aimed at encouraging Americans to go electric.
- New technology allows for an e-bike conversion. From the story: With pedaling assistance from a simple friction drive system, it’s less complex and a lot cheaper than a fully electric bike.
Hello, welcome to the Talking Michigan Transportation Podcast. I'm Jeff Cranson. Joanne Muller is a veteran journalist covering automotive news for Axios. She's based in Detroit and covers really all things mobility. A lot of her focus in recent years, for obvious reasons, has been on the development and growth in the electric vehicle industry, but she gets into a lot more than that in her coverage. She's a repeat visitor to the podcast and offers a lot of interesting insights. So we're going to talk about everything from EV sales to progress in developing electric vehicle charging networks, to consumer trends towards smaller vehicles and even one company's product to convert your conventional bike into an e-bike. So I hope you enjoy the conversation. So, Joanne, thank you again for coming on the podcast. I really appreciated your insights last time and I think, first of all, before we get into the real substance of mobility and all the things you cover, what's going on with the Axios What's Next newsletter?
Joann Muller:Well, Axios What's Next is no longer being published. We've sunset that newsletter, but I am still covering the future of transportation for Axios. That hasn't changed at all. But, you know, we're looking at different ways to get my stories out there. Hopefully there'll be a new newsletter down the road, but for now you'll find me at Axios. com and in a lot of our premier newsletters.
Jeff Cranson:This is just part of the environment of the new publishing industry and really pretty much everything. That things change quickly, right?
Joann Muller:Well, yeah, I mean, at Axios, we really feel like, you know, artificial intelligence is coming at us fast in the media and we think there's going to be a real premium on human beings reporting news, and so what we're really doing is doubling down on subject matter experts, people who have covered a beat forever Like me, I've covered the automotive industry for 40 years almost and the idea is like let's put the experts out there, somebody you can trust, rather than some AI article online, and so you know, we're doubling down on the real, specific beats that we're really strong at. And Axios, what's Next as wonderful as it was was more of a lifestyle newsletter, a little bit general, and we want to really focus on topics we know really well, and in my case, it's transportation. So I'm happy, I think it's going to be great. We'll get much more shine, much more of a light on what's happening, as transportation is really revolutionized.
Jeff Cranson:Well, I agree, and I especially like the point you made about AI and the idea that a reporter is just a stenographer who just takes down information and spits it out. So of course you know why couldn't artificial intelligence replace that? Good reporting requires judgment, you know. You don't get balance in a story without a human being exercising that judgment and deciding who should be the best voice and who is the best expert and who's going to make readers smarter. So I get that.
Joann Muller:That's our goal.
Jeff Cranson:Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about some of the things that have been going on lately, I think. First, the trend you've covered is consumer preferences towards smaller vehicles. You know that makes sense, I guess, from an economic standpoint, we know that. You know that makes sense, I guess, from an economic standpoint, we know that everything was subject to inflation, brought on by tax cuts, among other things, a war in Ukraine, a pandemic that nobody saw coming and that certainly hit the auto industry. Is that the reason that most people are buying, or many people are buying, smaller vehicles, after for years the US auto industry trending toward bigger and bigger?
Joann Muller:Yeah, well, I mean, let's be real, cars are expensive and you know it's a lot of times people, people cannot. Let me put it this way the reason people are buying smaller cars is not because they want to drive a smaller car. It's because what they can afford. The good news is that smaller cars are actually equipped with a lot more features than they used to be. You know, a small car used to be kind of seen as a econobox, you know, and it was just very basic transportation. Now you can get particularly these really subcompact SUVs like the Chevy Trax. These are, you know, quite desirable small SUVs and you get a lot of technology in them, both for infotainment but also for safety, and it's less of a compromise than it used to be.
Jeff Cranson:Yeah, absolutely. I think a long time ago, japanese automakers figured out that you don't necessarily have to make a huge vehicle in order to have the features that people like, even if it's just as simple as push-button windows to have the features that people like, even if it's just as simple as push-button windows. So, while the Toyota Corolla or Honda Accord or Nissan Sentra, you know, were small vehicles, back when the Honda Accord was actually small, you had those features and a US counterpart to it came with like none of those features at all. So, yeah, I think it's smart that people are figuring that out.
Joann Muller:Yeah, I mean. The problem, of course, is that the automakers make much more profit on the big, large vehicles, and so they would love to sell more of these two and three row SUVs, the big ones, pickup trucks, of course. That's how they can make the money that they can then invest in in the future autonomous and electric vehicles, for example. But you know, you have to listen to the consumer. Ultimately I think that's a lesson that I've heard over and over and over again in this industry, the consumer is the one that decides what sells, not the government and not the automakers. And so right now, consumers are saying wow, I can't afford a more expensive car, I'm going to opt for the smaller vehicle, and that's why you see small vehicle sales going up.
Jeff Cranson:Well, not to get too much into economic theory here, but I think you probably have some sense of this or you've formed some perspective. I mean, is this just another example of the shrinking middle class, the haves and have-nots in that there are people out there spending like crazy, taking vacations I don't know if you've been anywhere outside of Michigan lately, or northern Michigan, but people are on the roads, restaurants are full, tourist attractions are full, yet a lot of these same people are telling pollsters that the economy is really bad. And you think that same thing applies to autos. Or is this really about a certain element of the population just really being strapped?
Joann Muller:Well, I think there's, I think there's a reality there that people are strapped. A car is your second largest purchase after your home, right, and the average car price is somewhere in the neighborhood of $40,000. Now, that's really expensive, and interest rates are kind of high right now too, and so the payment is going to be higher. Um, and so you know it's, it's, people are feeling a little bit stretched. Um, you know, used car sales are coming back. Uh, the supply is improving. So there are other alternatives, um, to a new car.
Joann Muller:But, um, I think that if you look at electric vehicles, for example, those sales have, you know, been somewhat lower than what the industry had forecast. But one of the reasons is because most of the cars that are have been available up to now are very higher priced models, luxury models, you know, $60,000 and up, and not very many people can afford those. I think as you begin to see more mainstream, affordable models of electric vehicles, I think the sales will really begin to take off. Electric vehicles, I think the sales will really begin to take off, but you have to get it in a price that average people can afford, and that just hasn't happened yet.
Jeff Cranson:Yeah, so that dovetails with the other topic I wanted to talk about and that's some reporting from Automotive News that sales of battery power models across the country are up compared with the rest of the industry and that was spurred, as you would guess, by price cuts, tax breaks and other incentives and been encouraging Americans to go electric. I know price is a huge factor. I really thought range anxiety was a huge factor too, which you and I talked about the last time you were on the podcast. Can you put all that in perspective?
Joann Muller:Yeah, and I think another big factor is that we are finally getting some other models in price ranges that people can afford, so the choices are really exploding on EVs, and it's a reason why you see Tesla's market share plummet over the last couple of years. They're now below 50% of EVs. They used to be 100%, almost right. As more competitors come into the market, tesla will have less of an influence, and Tesla really only has two models that actually sell the Model 3 and the Model Y. But meanwhile you have every other brand coming at them. Uh, and I think cars like the Chevy Equinox, for instance, which is, you know, around 30,000 to start, uh, the the look at the Kias and the Hyundais that are electric those cars are really reaching, uh, you know, middle-class consumers, and so I think that, like I said before, I do think EV sales will be improving, and the automotive news data suggests it's already happening, right. So, yeah, a lot has to do with charging infrastructure, right.
Joann Muller:I think that the price of the EV, the sicker price and the concerns about where am I going to charge this thing are the two biggest issues that are holding back EV sales. Charging is such a complex topic and most people don't understand their options when they buy an EB. If you have the opportunity to charge it at home in your single-family garage, great, that's what I have and it works wonderfully. Great, that's what I have and it works wonderfully, right. But, um, you know a lot of people who live in multifamily housing, uh, don't have that option, uh, and they wonder, okay, well, maybe I can take it and charge it at work at the parking garage where I work every day.
Joann Muller:Uh, I know someone who did that and then discovered it was kind of inconvenient. Who did that and then discovered it was kind of inconvenient. So, you know, you have to really think these things through. The highway chargers that the federal government is funding under the infrastructure law, those are just beginning to go in into the ground. You know, government bureaucracy takes forever and when I talk to people at the federal government they say hey, it's not us, the money's here and it's up to the states to apply for it and to get all the permitting and get the utilities up to speed so that there's enough power going to the sites where they want it. It's just hard to make this happen and so in the meantime the customer's kind of twiddling their thumbs, saying, hmm, maybe I'm not ready to buy that EV yet.
Jeff Cranson:It is difficult to make it happen and I'll say that, as you know, one person's bureaucracy is another person's regulation to protect taxpayers, so it can be very difficult to get money on the street quickly in a way that is fair and encourages private industry to do good things but doesn't favor any one business over another. So, yeah, we'll have to talk more about that as the NEVI program starts putting more charters in the ground in Michigan. Things are happening there. But another concern about that charging infrastructure that you're talking about is you know what happens when it breaks down, and you had another story recently on EVgo and you know what they're doing to try to diagnose equipments in real time and replace outdated chargers or at least repair them if necessary. Can you talk a little about that?
Joann Muller:Yeah, sure. So EVgo is not alone in this. I think a lot of charging networks, as well as retailers and other you know sort of public entities, all threw a bunch of chargers in the ground early on, thinking that they would get an edge. You know, oh, we're going to have customers that will want to come to our shopping mall because we have free EV charging here, you know. And the problem was that the technology is evolving and the chargers, once they're installed in the ground, it's not always clear who maintains them and who improves upon them. And so you have, like you know, sort of some stranded EV chargers out there in the wilderness that were put in with good intentions and don't work or are not powerful enough so they don't deliver enough power so that people can get on their way quickly. So EVgo is one of the largest charging network providers out there and they know they have a problem and they've been working on it, and one of the things they're doing now is they have some new technology that will allow them to sort of monitor the success or failure of charging sessions in real time, instead of waiting for the customer to call them up and say, hey, I'm at the Meijer on I-75 and this charger didn't work today. And then on the phone the person will ask some questions and then they, you know, reset, they reboot the computer on the charger and finally maybe you get on your way. This would enable them to have much better data and with better data then you can do a better job with preventative maintenance and that kind of thing.
Joann Muller:It's, it's a, it's an issue. You know a lot of the companies will say oh, we're, you know 95 percent uptime with our chargers and if one doesn't work, you just move to the other. Well, what's happening is, now that we're getting some more EVs on the road, the charging locations maybe are getting a little more crowded and you might not have the opportunity to move to a different charger plug because someone else is already there and so you have to wait for their 40 minute charging session to finish before you can start your 40-minute charging. So again, we're still not there with the infrastructure. We're working on it, but the United States is not there yet.
Jeff Cranson:Yeah, I'm sure a lot of EV owners really long for the days when they pulled a certain commercial enterprise or perhaps you know the YMCA or someplace that was ahead of the curve and had a few charging stations and they were the only ones there. And now it's a bit of the Yogi Berra-ism, right, nobody goes there anymore. The place is too crowded. Please stay tuned. We'll be back with more Talking Michigan Transportation right after this.
MDOT Message:Avoid the wait and remember the Mackinac Bridge is closed to traffic Labor Day for the annual bridge walk, starting at 6 30 am. Spend some extra time in the UP or take your time heading north, since the bridge won't reopen to traffic until noon to allow walkers to clear the bridge. For more information, head to Mackinacbridge. org/W alk.
Jeff Cranson:Yeah, I think that you raise a good point too, that if we had started out with EVs and EV charging and never had gas-powered vehicles, we probably wouldn't think that the technology problems and the breakdowns are that big a deal. While I'm sure gas pumps do break down, I can't think of many times that I've found that a gas pump or the hose and handle weren't working. It's just simpler technology, I would guess.
Joann Muller:Yeah, and it's had about 100 years to perfect it too.
Joann Muller:Yeah good point, we're only a few years into this, a few years into this, I would imagine in the early days I wasn't around. But I would imagine in the early days of the gasoline automobile it might have been hard to find a gas station. And you know it's all computerized now and you know the few times I've run into trouble at a gas station. It usually has to do with electrical power out. You know the station is out of, is blacked out for some reason a storm or something like that. And you know you'll have that with EV chargers as well.
Joann Muller:But you know we kind of forget that this is a process, this is a transition and it's going to be very bumpy for a long time. And we're there's no way we're going to. You know, flip a switch and now everybody's driving an EV. Um, and gasoline cars are going to be around for, uh, quite a while. And what's interesting is you're starting to see automakers kind of acknowledge that now, you know more so, and they're also putting a lot more effort into hybrids and plug-in hybrids, where sales have been quite strong. For, you know, people like baby steps and this is a good way for them to kind of get used to the idea of an electric motor helping to propel their car.
Jeff Cranson:Yeah, and I don't want to be critical of the industry, but you do kind of wonder. If you know, henry Ford had the foresight to say I've got to be able to pay my employees enough to afford my products. Somebody would have thought before we put these things out there, we got to make sure that there's ample ways to charge them.
Joann Muller:Yeah, well, it's. You know it's the classic chicken and egg problem and it has been for years problem, um, and it has been for years. Um, you, if you go too fast, uh, with the charging infrastructure, people are going to look around and say, look at all that wasted taxpayer money, uh. But if you go too slow, you're going to say, why should I drive this car? There's no place for me to charge it.
Joann Muller:So it's, it's, they have to go in parallel step and um, and it's it's very hard to get multiple industries to work together on this, um, and so I think you know it's, it's not awful, they're they're doing their best, um, but I, I will say this again, I think if you can charge your vehicle at home, you can find this to be a nearly seamless transition. Really, it's because most people aren't driving that far, you know, and you bring your car home every night and you recharge it. It's ready to go in the morning. Some places you get lower rates on your utilities, on your electric bill, if you charge overnight rather than during the day. So there's, you know, it can be advantageous, but it depends on your level of your appetite for risk and uncertainty.
Jeff Cranson:Yeah, and sadly this is still a somewhat partisan issue. I don't know if you've ever listened to Mike Murphy, a Republican political consultant, oakland County native, who in his early days did some work for Governor Angler and then went on to do much bigger campaigns across the country. He's a huge advocate for EVs and we'll talk about it to anybody who will listen, which he often does on his Hacks on Tap podcast with David Axelrod and it's really interesting to get his take, you know, coming at it from from his background and his point of view, and he's very frustrated that so many people are still putting up resistance. So I wonder when it'll start to really change. But I think in the next couple of years you're going to see those figures go in the upward direction pretty quickly.
Joann Muller:I think so too, because you know it's funny once you drive an EV it's really hard to go back to a gasoline car.
Joann Muller:They just feel so sluggish and heavy and loud. Yeah, that too, and you know, when you drive an EV, you just feel like you're driving the future, and it they are. They are very're getting longer range, um, although one thing that you will see, uh, you know, we've been sort of climbing toward these higher ranges, um, at least 250, but like the sweet spot has been identified around 300 miles um between charges. Uh, because that's about what you get in a gasoline vehicle, but that requires a little bit bigger battery to get that and therefore it adds cost and weight and other things. And so a lot of companies Ford is a good example and so a lot of companies Ford is a good example they're trying to use a different type of battery technology that is sort of shorter range but very dependable and less prone to fires, for example, and the technology comes from China, and that's the complicating factor.
Joann Muller:Uh, there's a lot of politics behind that as well, um, but the point is that EVs maybe don't need to go 300 miles um for the majority of your driving. You're going to drive a lot less than that on a daily basis, um, now, if you have a second car, you can use that on your vacation or you can work in a charging stop along the highway. But if you only have one car and you want to go a long distance, it's not quite as convenient. But I think those lower cost EVs are going to be very popular.
Jeff Cranson:Yeah, and that comes back to your earlier point about people who live in multi-family housing or multi-unit complexes, and oftentimes those are young people who are just starting out but might be interested in an EV, but they have that charging dilemma. So I think, yes, solving all of that is going to go a long way toward helping the industry. Lastly, let's talk a little bit about some other technology that you've reported on and you got to try out yourself, and it's it's a company called clip, and it makes it possible to convert your conventional bike into an e-bike. That sounds really interesting.
Joann Muller:Yeah, it is. It is really cool. It's this, basically battery enclosed inside a little system that is like a spring-mounted clamp. It goes right over the front wheel and it has a friction drive system. So there's a wheel that comes in contact with the bicycle's wheel and so as you pedal it kind of matches your effort, your speed rather, and takes away some of the effort that you have to use. And it's a much cheaper, more common sense way to get some electrification on your bicycle and it's really good for short trips around town. So if you were riding your bike to work or school, you could use this device and you could get there without being all sweaty and for 500, compared to you know, 1500, 1000, 1500, up to like 5000 for an electric bike. It's a much cheaper way to go and I had some fun playing around with it in my neighborhood so you're turning your bike into a front wheel drive vehicle.
Joann Muller:Yeah, exactly.
Jeff Cranson:Did you find that that effect steering at all, or did you, I mean, was it just really kind of unnoticeable, except for the extra torque that you get?
Joann Muller:Well so. So this device weighs about 10 pounds and I did find that, you know, it feels like it changes the center of gravity a little bit. Uh, it certainly. When I was just pedaling I felt like it was maybe a little more effort, uh, on the flat surfaces, cause I'm lugging around an extra 10 pounds, um, but um, it was really great going up some Hills, like I just practice going up and down, because when you go up you push the little button and it, it gives you a they call it a boost and uh, it just it helps you soar right up that mountain, or up that hill rather and then on the way down you press a separate button and it captures the energy and puts it back into the battery to recharge it.
Joann Muller:So it's regenerative braking like you have on an electric vehicle. So you know, it may not be for everybody, but I could see urban people who live in urban areas and don't want to be bothered with a car can ride their bike and the nice thing is you could just snap this thing on and off and so you take it off when you park your bike, you carry it with it has a nice handle or you stick it in your backpack 10 pounds and you can recharge it at your desk or in your house, and then it's ready to go again. Um uh, you know, the next day well, let's say it's completely run down.
Jeff Cranson:How long would it take to charge?
Joann Muller:Um, I think it depends on the uh size. There's two different sizes, but um it. It only takes about an hour to to recharge it. Um, and it can give you up to 18 miles of range. Um, it also depends on how you use it. If you're, if you keep the boost button plugged the whole time, it's not going to go as far. But if you're pedaling, using human pedaling as well as saving the boost for up and down the hills, you could get as many as 18 miles. On the thing is again, most people, you know their target market is people who are commuting three miles, you know, maybe you're, you're just going, you know, from your, from your apartment to your office, a couple miles away. Uh, you could walk there, surely you could drive, but that might take you just as long. Or you could get on the bike and use this and then take it in and plug it in.
Jeff Cranson:You're ready to go again in a little while yeah, I mean, depending on where your commute is and traffic and parking, it could be quicker so yeah I think it's interesting I think, uh, you know, setting aside the clip, I mean who among us wouldn't like a boost button to push once in a while, like maybe around four o'clock in the afternoon? I I get my boost from a diet coke at four o'clock in the afternoon.
Joann Muller:I get my boost from a Diet Coke at four o'clock in the afternoon.
Jeff Cranson:Yeah, there you go. Well, Joanne, thanks as always. I really appreciate your insights and the work you do. I find your reporting always interesting and, like I said, it always makes me smarter, and I appreciate you taking time to come on and talk about these things.
Joann Muller:Well, fantastic, and I hope your listeners will find me on Axioscom.
Jeff Cranson:I'd like to thank you once more for tuning in to Talking Michigan Transportation. You can find show notes and more on Apple Podcasts or Buzzsprout. I also want to acknowledge the talented people who help make this a reality each week, starting with Randy Devler, who skillfully edits the audio, Jesse Ball, who proofs the content, Courtney Bates, who posts the podcast to various platforms, and Jackie Salinas, who transcribes the audio to make it accessible to all.