Talking Michigan Transportation
The Talking Michigan Transportation podcast features conversations with transportation experts inside and outside MDOT and will touch on anything and everything related to mobility, including rail, transit and the development of connected and automated vehicles.
Talking Michigan Transportation
Dr. Fraud: Do NOT respond to texts about unpaid tolls
On this week’s edition of the Talking Michigan Transportation podcast, a conversation with J. Michael Skiba, also known as “Dr. Fraud,” a national expert on scams, like those proliferating in Michigan and other states, where text messages tell people they have unpaid road tolls.
Skiba is department chair at Colorado State University Global where he oversees the Criminal Justice Department, including specializations in fraud, financial crime, and cybercrime. He discusses the psychology that prompts so many victims of online fraud to engage with scammers on smishing attempts.
If you’ve been targeted, the FCC offers many tips.
In April, the Michigan Department of Transportation released a video of Director Bradley C. Wieferich urging people not to respond to the texts.
Hello, welcome to the Talking Michigan Transportation Podcast. I'm Jeff Cranston. Right now, just about every one of us has received a scam text on our cell phone saying that we have an unpaid bill for a tolling facility. It's a big problem in Michigan and other states. At MDOT, we've done some creative things to try to educate the public. The Attorney General's office has also been helpful.
Speaker 2:So in my research I discovered a real specialist in this area, dr J Michael Skiba, who is a program chair for fraud management at Colorado State University, global, and he's also known as Dr Fraud and he's done media all over the country really all over the world, talking about this.
Speaker 2:He has a real passion for trying to alert people to these kinds of scams and tell them why you shouldn't click on or answer a text or email or anything claiming to be soliciting an unpaid toll. It's especially troubling that this is happening in Michigan, where we don't have any toll roads. We have a few toll bridges, but obviously people have easy passes and things when they travel in other states and so they easily think, if they get one of these texts, that they must be behind on a toll from travels somewhere else and they think it's only a few dollars, so I'd rather just pay this and not be hassled. And they don't realize that this smishing scam is just an attempt to get their information. Obviously to get their information, obviously to get their credit card or banking information. So before Dr Skiba joins the conversation, I wanted you to hear some brief audio from a video that Director Wefric of MDOT recorded alerting the public to this scam, and then you'll hear from Dr Skiba. I hope you enjoy the conversation.
Speaker 2:Government agencies will not request personal information through email over the phone or text Dr J Michael Skiba, who is known better in the world of fraud detection as Dr Fraud. Thank you for taking time to talk about this. As you know, michigan, like many states and I think this is actually a worldwide phenomenon has been hit hard with these tolling tech scams, and I've seen some interviews where you offer some really good insight on the psychology of why people bite on this, and I think those of us who are naturally skeptical about such things kind of scratch our heads and think you know, why would anybody take that seriously? So can you talk about that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely, jeff, and yeah, thanks for having me First off. Great to, yeah, great to be here. And yeah, I think you know it's so interesting because what we find, what I find, is that scams are seasonal. Right, it shifts throughout the year. So you know, back around, you know, come September you're going to have back to school type scams. You know, you know, come the holidays you have shipping scams, valentine's Day you have, you know, your flowers have been delivered scams. It literally goes the gamut.
Speaker 1:Now, what we usually see in the summer is we see spikes in travel, of course. So then you know you're going to see Airbnb scams, you're going to see scams related to airlines. But this year they tried a new flavor on it. They figured they'd go back to the old, you know, good old American road trip and target us on our easy path. So and it really started probably about two, three months ago, you know, kind of coming on everyone's radar. You know I started hearing things, you know getting asked, you know from media circles and others, kind of what I was seeing, and it just has grown massively. I saw a statistic the other day that said that this type of scan, this particular flavor related to E-ZPass and Tolls has increased 900 percent since January, which is phenomenal and I'll be honest with you, jeff, I think it's probably double, triple that, because you know that's just based on what.
Speaker 1:A lot of people don't even report it. So I mean that's just based on the stats they know. So I mean, literally, as you can tell, it's just full court press on this right now. So what they're doing is a couple of things that that's happening here, which is why this is such an issue, is one you know. You can't go anywhere without hearing the term ai, right, even a coffee shop, I mean, it's just everywhere. But but ai has been used in fraud scams for years, but specifically of late, they have really, really honed in their efforts on it. Um, and they are, they're just bombarding, bombarding people with with, you know, could be email, could be a text or could be a phone call. You know, from wherever state that you reside in, you know they're claiming to be the, you know, thruway authority, travel authority, highway authority, attorney general's office. I mean they're trying all different kinds of flavors to try to get you to bite. So they're putting out all these lines out there, but they're just coming at us consumers at every single angle. So they're just trying to manipulate that. Now they're using AI Back in the old days I say in the old days, it was only like five years ago A lot of this stuff was manual, right.
Speaker 1:They have to go to websites, find out Jeff Cranston How's his first name, last name? Where does he travel? Does he ever? You know a lot of OSINT open source investigative tactics they use. Now they use AI so they can, you know, attack databases and maybe download. You know everyone that has, you know, has had a toll violation, let's say. I mean, I mean, there's things that they can access through the dark web and they just bombard people and they constantly, you know, constantly evolve their tactics almost by the millisecond with AI. So people, you know, are just, it's just literally, like they're getting. It's kind of like, you know, being in the middle of a water balloon fight with you know, when it's 20 v 1. It's just like every triangle they're just, you know, bombarding you with.
Speaker 1:So that's the issue. And what they do is they use these very deep psychological tactics that have again been used for hundreds and hundreds of years in fraud and scams. You know, sense of urgency they're using, you know, sense of authority, they're using legitimacy and credibility through the way that these scams look, you know they're visual, some have QR codes. I mean they look real official. So I mean really from the gamut of when they first a consumer first gets you know, you know phished or texts or smished or whatever it is right you know, and then they open it and it looks authentic.
Speaker 1:And then you know, hopefully they don't, but if they do engage, I mean it sends them down a wrong path. So I mean there's so many things to talk about here, but people are just being completely bombarded with this and, because it's new, there's only a few segments out there media-wise. And you know, even though the AGs I've seen the attorney generals and even again, the highway authorities, transportation authorities of every state have put out notices, the FTC has put out a warning, it's still not reaching the masses. So it's kind of still, you know, a new scam with a new flavor that a lot of people just aren't keying up.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I mean, I've got people coming to me that I absolutely think would know better and they think it's legit and, and I think part of what I know you've talked about the psychology of this and I I should back up and let you talk a little bit about how your work in criminal justice at colorado state university kind of informs your passion for this topic. But people think you it's only a few bucks. I would rather just pay that and not be hassled and they don't realize that it's not about the few bucks, right?
Speaker 1:Yes, one hundred percent. And so what they're doing that's another psychological tactic is because it's usually a low dollar amount, right, it's usually four, ninety, nine, you know three, ninety, nine,99, even 99 cents, I've seen, right. So people, literally right, they're like ah, it's not worth it, why am I gonna fight and do this and that I'm just gonna click, paint out, right. But but the thing here is that in cases like this, um, yes, you know, if they do get 99 cents, you know a million times that's gonna, of course, add up. But, um, really, what they're looking for is for you to engage, because what that, what really is a lot more valuable than that, is your personal information. Ok, so you know, you know that that email was valid, that that that phone number was valid, that you know what your, you know your name was, where you are. They're going to kind, of, once you do engage and what that does, again getting back to AI, once you do engage and what that does, again getting back to AI. So this is what happens when they send out a billion scam texts, a second, right, they don't know. It's all algorithms, so they don't know. Some of these aren't even real numbers, right, so that computer does not know, but it's trained that once someone engages, all right.
Speaker 1:So let's say you get it, jeff, and you click on something OK, maybe not even pay now, but just like you know, click here to view your bill or something like this right, that immediately gets back to their AI system and says, hey, I'm a human. And it's kind of like, you know, like when you, you know, win, like the old skeeball Remember those Like it's kind of like the skee, super popular, you know, you at that point get a person on their end and then it becomes human to be human. And that's a lot harder because then, you know, they again put that full press on you with one person, sometimes two, three, four, sometimes they have a whole team, you know, working, trying to, you know, continue on that scam with you. So it's kind of like they're pulling, you know, slowly pulling you down that path. So that's, that's a good right. That's one of the tactics. It's usually low. There's a massive sense of urgency there, right? So they usually say something like OK, this is past overdue If this is not paid within 24 hours.
Speaker 1:Your license or hours, your license is going to be revoked or you will be ticketed by the state police, or you know something like this. They're going to really, really get your emotions in it. So that's going to offset, you know, your logical thinking and you're going to, you know, be more apt to actually, you know, pay that amount.
Speaker 2:So a couple of things that we've done and we're trying to be creative here and thinking of everything, and our attorney general in Michigan has also been good on the messaging on this and you mentioned that other AGs have done that. We had our director make a brief video to share with media with her explaining, with him explaining, why you shouldn't click on this, don't engage, it's a scam, short and sweet, hopefully something that would resonate with people. And on our dynamic message signs you know the boards that you see on the freeways we have a real tight message that says you know, be aware that toll texts are scams. Again, we hope that helps. Do you know of other agencies, tolling authorities or state DOTs or, like the International Bridges Tolling Tunnel Association, any group that's doing anything creative that you think is particularly effective?
Speaker 1:You know I've personally been involved in, you know, being native to New York I mean and of course all the travel that occurs there. I mean they have a lot of challenges too, because all the bridges, you know, going in and out, they have, you know, toll roads, of course, all over. But basically what has happened is they have involved even law enforcement. Okay, so it's kind of like a holistic view where you know even law enforcement is putting out notices. It's kind of, you know, getting back to like the community policing element of it. You know just trying to do those notices, informing the people, because sometimes that more you know, you know the local police departments can kind of maybe grab a reach instead of, you know, I mean the average consumer might not have a, you know, daily or weekly contact, let's say, with the AG's office, but you know they might be just randomly. You know they might see their police department or police officers, you know, once a week or once every few days or so.
Speaker 1:So that is something I think that I have seen where they've involved you know other law enforcement and even criminal justice agencies, you know Department of Criminal Justice, new York or you know any other kind of like I don't want to say level two, but those that might not be directly involved but definitely have a strong reach to kind of help spread the word. But I think you know, starting with what you're doing is fantastic, Absolutely. You know, sending as much notifications out billboards definitely a great idea. I know even strategic placement of billboards is important too. You know those high traffic areas, which is again where your Department of Transportation can come in. You know whether it is bridges, whether it's, you know, right at certain toll areas. I know that could be in Michigan. Of course you guys have a ton of people coming in and out, you know, during the summer months, so that could be something strategic too to look at.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good idea too. We so that could be something strategic too to look at. Yeah, that's a good idea too. We will continue the conversation right after a quick break. The Michigan Department of Transportation reminds you to slow down, follow all signs and pay attention when driving through work zones, because all employees deserve a safe place to work. Work zone safety we're all in this together. Talk a little bit about you. Know how you became sort of an expert in this field? What kind of feeds your passions in this area? You?
Speaker 1:know, I tell you, jeff, it really I just, you know, when I started my career as an investigator, you know I was an SIU investigator based in New York and honestly, I really it massively bothered me. I lost sleep at night when I learned that someone was tricked or scammed. You know, in those early days it was really the insurance companies. You know, I just you know people were committing crime against the insurance company. It just, it really bothered me. You know why, just why people do this and I kind of, just you know that fueled the passion of academics and research which you know led me to, you know, pursue the MBA, phd and then teach in the area, but then also always wearing the second hat of being a very active practitioner globally, even for the UN and Interpol. So, like, I think it just I don't like to see people get taken advantage of, whether it's, you know, my neighbor or whether it's, you know, a huge insurance company or a state, the state of Michigan, you know. So it just bothers me that these groups are targeting these individuals and I think now the level again working, you know, international and for these government agencies, again specifically for the UN.
Speaker 1:I just came off a three-year project on and off where they were asking me to consult, and these groups that are precipitating these crimes that you are seeing in Michigan, these are highly, highly organized overseas criminal groups. Many of them have ties to the cartels, the terrorist cells. I mean, really, I've been there, I've seen it and it's extremely, extremely disturbing how there's a collaboration, if you will, on the dark side, you know, and that's they're using that. So all the money, you know, is just going to these, you know, areas overseas and in different areas to fuel all kinds of just horrific, disturbing crimes.
Speaker 1:And that's what I think bothers me is that it's just really starting to escalate. And I just, I mean I get calls, really, jeff, probably I wouldn't say once a day, probably two, two, three times a week, just from I don't mean professionally, I mean just friends, friends, family, just like, oh man, you know, I I just got scammed here and I don't know what to do. Or, you know, my grandmother just fell for this one. I mean that's what bothers me, you know, and it kind of hits home, you know, and that's that's really where I think you know we can maybe, you know, utilize whatever resources we have and just just really, you know, just like you're doing just spread the word as much as you can. I think that's really hopefully going to help.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think what really bothers me and my colleagues is obviously any scam, any crime. Any vulnerable victim being defrauded bothers us, but this something particularly heinous about this because we know who they're preying upon and, yeah, it's very troubling. So I guess, real quickly, just talk a little bit about you know where you take this from here. I mean, it's not going to be stopping soon and it sounds like the investigators, no matter how good they are, they're not going to be able to pinpoint this to any specific geographic area, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, there's two things to look for Right. What I would say is, from a consumer perspective, number one protect yourself as much as possible. So I always recommend a couple of things tech not technology and the human element. So, first off, you know, create that, that concentric circle. It's kind of like, you know, like Secret Service. If they're protecting someone, you know they have, they have circles of layers of security, someone you know they have circles of layers of security. This is exactly what you want to do with.
Speaker 1:You know scams and fraud is that? Start with your phone. You know the apps that you have. Make sure you're not sharing things. You know make sure your ride share app is not always open. So you're, you know, sharing your information all the time. You know the settings that come in all your emails and texts. Mark them as spam and things like that. Your Internet service, you know expand out to your home. You know your Internet service providers. Look at those like ring cameras and Alexa, things like that. I mean, you know, really tighten down your you know quote, unquote house from a personal level. So to use technology to kind of limit the number of of these instances that are getting through in the first place, okay, um.
Speaker 1:Secondly, I think it's the human element. And here's the thing you know, when I, when I did there are types of training, even even really, probably last summer, I mean like six months, a little more than six months, maybe eight months ago I would tell people you know, verify before you click, right, verify, verify, you know, check this and that. Now my message is basically, in all caps in bold do not engage at all, don't click, don't reply, don't engage, because in this era, I mean, if there is an issue, someone will reach out to you, okay. So, for example, if you are default on your E-ZPass payments, right, and you just ignore, ignore, you know there will be a time where there will be a legitimate phone call, probably made to you, right, or you're going to get something in the mail that is maybe, you know, legit. So there is still legitimacy to some of these situations, but I would say 99.99 to infinity of the times, these are all scams.
Speaker 1:So I would say do not click, and it's, it's. It's very important to not touch anything. So don't even like. If it's on a outlook window, don't even open the window, don't expand the reading pane, because that could be an indicator that, hey, this person's a human, you know, just delete, delete right away, don't touch, unsubscribe, don't touch. This is not me, I mean, that's another you know trick that they're using too is kind of like it's a chess match, right. So you know, jeff, you're going to get a text that says hey, hey, dr Fraud, you know your default on your E-ZPass and click here. If this is not you, of course, right, you might be tempted to click here, right, and that's again just a trick, okay. So you have to be careful, you have to really really be careful.
Speaker 1:So I would say, from a personal perspective, that's the best approach. Law enforcement, really, it's going to be a matter of just collaboration, just like we saw even the COVID, the post-COVID scams, right, it's just a matter of kind of collaborating with law enforcement and getting a you know a front together. So, you know, on a state level in Michigan, you know kind of, you know, maybe creating a certain or having certain task forces just specific to incidents like this where, let's say, it does pivot next winter to Christmas you know, holiday shipping scams, you know the task force can immediately pivot on that. You know, with plan A, b, c, d, d, contact this person. So that's another strategy. I think that's going to really help us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So are you still at Colorado State? I am Correct, yes.
Speaker 1:Yes, I'm department chair there. That's correct, yep, I'm department chair, yep, csu Global. That's correct, yep.
Speaker 2:So did you kind of create that, that specialty. And how did you come up with the Dr Fraud brand? Was that worse?
Speaker 1:So actually, yeah, so I start. When I started at Colorado State University, I was actually teaching, you know, because I have credential to teach business and finance as well with the NBA. So I started. I always do teach a little business, but but then that of course gets me into a little of a cyber world, fraud world, which is where I've always had or sat. So when I took over as department chair, we developed a whole fraud and financial crime program, which is what, uh, you know, of course, my, my wheelhouse is uh, and that has grown uh into into a lot of different, uh, different areas, uh as well, and that's that's just a again a really uh, fantastic, fantastic university. I've been with them for for 10 years um and yeah the doctor fraud, that that.
Speaker 1:That really kind of happened about, I think it was right after I got my PhD. I mean, it was kind of like a thing where, you know, I mean there's Dr Phil, dr Oz, et cetera, you know. And it was kind of funny how it started. I was at a conference actually in Vienna, austria, an international conference, and some folks had just been kind of talking and the guy that was introducing me he was Italian, he had a very, very heavy accent, he was kind of trying to get all these words out to introduce me and it kind of came out as dr frog.
Speaker 1:It was like a dr Michael Skiba, the frog of a, and some people, when I come off, came off stage, were kind of calling me dr fraud. And I'm like, oh, you know, it's like later that day I'm like this is kind of cool, I want to fight. You know, this is kind of like my alter ego. So really it started, um, you know, as as just you know, a little uh snippet, and then it just grew into kind of the brand of of. You know, again, I call it my alter ego of of. You know, trying to, you know, spread the word and and uh, do some good and and uh know, be purposeful in again preventing those vulnerable parties.
Speaker 1:So, that's been quite an adventure, Jeff.
Speaker 2:No, but I think it's great that you're doing what you're doing and giving you know media around the country, especially a go-to. That CNBC story you participated in I think was probably the most comprehensive thing I've seen on this topic and it was very, very, very good. Is there anything else you want to say to people about this topic? And I mean, you went over the best tips, I think, but anything else.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, just in short, again, just you know, do not click. I mean that I guess would be my message is that you know, if enjoy your road trips, hit the road. Michigan's got some of the most fantastic scenery in the country, so you know, hit the road, Don't be scared. But just again, you have to be careful, don't be. I say, don't be paranoid, just be cautious. That's how you have to be these days, you, and just kind of hit all those security things I talked about and just spread the word. You know, just, just, you know, honestly, sometimes, just you know telling your friends and family, maybe your parents that are, you know, over 75 and aren't familiar with phone usage, I mean just things like that are really going to help. So I think, just kind of spreading the word a little bit, but yeah, but again you know not to be paranoid, just have some, still have some fun out there, I think.
Speaker 2:So, again, you know not to be paranoid, just have some. Still have some fun out there, I think so. Well, I certainly appreciate your plug for our beautiful state, especially coming from someone who obviously has spent some time in upstate New York and in Colorado, which are both beautiful places too. So thank you for that.
Speaker 1:Appreciate that. Yeah, you guys have some fantastic fishing there.
Speaker 2:So, yes, well, thank you so much for doing this, for taking the time to do this, and good luck, as you keep spreading the word, and I think this is one of those things we're going to have to learn to live with. So we're probably going to have to accept that it's all about containment and not about getting rid of it entirely. Correct, correct.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it was really a pleasure. A pleasure being on the podcast and everything. Really great job. I'm more than happy to cooperate in the future. If you need anything else, I'm definitely here for you.
Speaker 2:All right, thank you. I'd like to thank you once more for tuning in to Talking Michigan Transportation. You can find show notes and more on Apple Podcasts or Buzzsprout. I also want to acknowledge the talented people who help make this a reality each week, starting with Randy Devler, who skillfully edits the audio, jesse Ball, who proofs the content, courtney Bates, who posts the podcast to various platforms, and Jackie Salinas, who transcribes the audio to make it accessible to all.