Talking Michigan Transportation
The Talking Michigan Transportation podcast features conversations with transportation experts inside and outside MDOT and will touch on anything and everything related to mobility, including rail, transit and the development of connected and automated vehicles.
Talking Michigan Transportation
Building roads and bridges generates jobs
On this week’s edition of the Talking Michigan Transportation podcast, a focus on jobs tied to road and bridge building.
Gov. Whitmer sent a letter Aug. 7 to the directors of the Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) and the Michigan Department of Labor and Economic Opportunity (LEO), calling on them to compile and publicly release data on the impact of the state’s road funding cliff and federal funding rollbacks and policies on Michigan’s economy and employment.
First, Heath Salisbury, financial secretary and training director for Operating Engineers 324, talks about what investments in infrastructure mean to people in the skilled trades and the thousands of jobs involved.
Salisbury offers his perspective as a veteran of the industry, working in the trenches, then later in training workers and developing a work force capable of building in a modern environment where technology is evolving rapidly.
Later, Karen Faussett, who manages MDOT’s statewide and urban travel analysis section, talks about how her team tracks the economic benefits of investment in transportation infrastructure.
Hello, welcome to the Talking Michigan Transportation Podcast. I'm Jeff Cranston. Earlier this month, governor Whitmer sent a letter to the directors of the Michigan Department of Transportation, mdot, and the Michigan Department of Labor and Economic Opportunity, leo, calling on them to compile and publicly release data on the effect the state's road funding cliff and federal funding rollbacks could mean to Michigan's economy and, specifically, employment. So today I spoke with Heath Salisbury, who is the financial secretary and training director for Operating Engineers 324. He's also the vice chair of the Michigan State Transportation Commission about what investments in infrastructure mean to people in the skilled trades and the thousands of jobs involved. He has a lot of interesting things to say about his time working as an operator before he moved into his capacity as financial secretary and training director, and he's been on the ground. But he's also been involved in training a lot of apprentices and workers of the future who really benefit greatly from everything the operators do to bring them along, and we all benefit greatly from the experience and the skills they have in building our roads and all of the jobs supported because of that. I should mention too that for technical reasons the audio was a little rough for Heath, but I think that, given the skill of our engineer, randy Dubler, you'll be able to understand what he's saying and hopefully it won't be too much of an impediment to listening.
Speaker 1:Later, karen Fawcett, who manages MDOT's statewide and urban travel analysis section, talks about how her team tracks the economic benefits of investment in transportation infrastructure. She has a really interesting job taking a look at all kinds of data and figuring out how many jobs are supported. That means not just the contractors and the hardhats on the ground doing the work, but other jobs related to that, jobs that are supported because of that investment infrastructure. So I hope you enjoy the conversation. So Heath Salisbury, who I mentioned before, is the Financial Secretary and Training Director for Operating Engineers 324. He's also the Vice Chair of the State Transportation Commission.
Speaker 1:Heath, thank you very much for taking time to do this. Yeah, no problem. So I've talked to you before and this has really heated up as an issue lately what it means to jobs and to the economy to have ongoing road and bridge construction. It's a vital part of the economy in terms of getting goods to market and delivering commuters where they need to go, but it also supports a number of jobs, especially in the construction industry, which is what you're most familiar with jobs, especially in the construction industry, which is what you're most familiar with.
Speaker 2:Talk a little bit about what you do with the operators and why this is such a vital topic. So what I do with the operators now currently is we train the individuals that are members of our local and our apprentice programs and also our journeymen that work for the contractors that are doing these projects for the state of Michigan, working on the roads. So in doing that, this is very important to us because if we have road funding then we can continue our programs, we can continue training our members and our apprentices. If we don't have funding, those things slow down tremendously. The contractor's workload slows down tremendously.
Speaker 1:So we're recording this on August 21st. It happens to coincide with the day that the governor asked both the Department of Labor and Economic Opportunity and MDOT, the Michigan Department of Transportation, to respond to some specific questions about what kinds of jobs are affected by road construction, road repairs. We know that that could be up to 21,000 jobs annually that are supported by road construction without additional funding. We're facing a huge cliff and you see that in your members and in your training. So talk a little bit about how you guys explain that to the public and why. I guess, put some meat on the bones of what this actually means.
Speaker 2:So what this means to us and our membership is that the less funding we have, the less opportunities are out there. And then so, for example, if this cliff happens, it slows down enough that the individuals get laid off in the winter season and or if there is not work. So when that happens, we've trained these individuals, we've spent the time and the money, and the contractors have spent the time and the money to train these individuals and we end up losing them to other states that have funding. Our neighboring states that are very close have funding and we potentially could lose the individuals that we spent our hard earned time and money training to the other states that are surrounding us and that's challenging for us and the contractors have a bunch of investment in machinery and stuff and we have investment in the workers as the trades and that's just. It's a drain to our workforce in the state of Michigan.
Speaker 1:So I should have started with this, but as we get into this further and what that training means and what kinds of jobs these are talk about your background and you know what you did before you rose to the job that you're in now.
Speaker 2:So, jeff, I started out working for some construction companies in my youth, spent a few years in college working for an environmental company at night when I was doing that, worked for a family business, worked for multiple contractors in the industry after that and just kind of rose up through the ranks as a laborer on the ground and then got in the operators' union and then just rose up through the ranks and operating equipment as a foreman, as a superintendent, and I ran a bunch of bigger road projects and airport projects before I came on staff with the operating engineers over 11 years ago.
Speaker 1:So talk about your work with heavy equipment and what you were operating and what's involved in that, because it's another one of those things that I think we all just take for granted. We drive by a work zone or construction site and see those cranes whirling about and see bulldozers and backhoes and don't really think about what goes into those operations.
Speaker 2:So, jeff, I mean, it's like anything, the more you do it, the better you are, the better trained. Like anything, the more you do it, the better you are, the better trained you are, the more practice you have, the safer you are. And so my background comes from the dirt and the underground utility side, and that's the equipment that I ran the bulldozers, the excavators, the scrapers, the loaders, those type of equipment that you'd see on your road projects.
Speaker 1:So my grandpa was an operator, I've told you before, and had one of the first backhoes in southern Michigan, actually in the early 50s, and he always prided himself on having a tremendous eye for grade. You know, he could sit in the seat and look down in the hole where a drain field was going in or field tile, and tell you that needs to come up an inch or two inches. Um, you don't really need a good eye for great anymore with gps and technology, right correct.
Speaker 2:I mean, you still have to have it because sometimes those things go out, and that's unique. That's the way I started out, you know, having the eye for great or being able to feel it in the seat, as they they call it as the machine would tip forward, you're controlling that blade or bucket the other way as a reaction to that, to keep a smooth, level plane, and that's how you create a grade. Now we have, like you said, the GPS equipment that helps us with that stuff. They're actually automated, so it's actually really nice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but as you do that training and you find people that really take to it, you know they obviously might not know for sure. They think it sounds interesting and they think they can probably make a pretty good living. But they don't know until you get them to the center and get them on the equipment and you know talk about that what a thrill it is when you see somebody really take to it and take off. A young person that you know sees that this is something I can really succeed at.
Speaker 2:So, jeff, it's like anything. I compare a lot of what we do in life to sports and I compare these things to you know it's the first time that you see somebody that's challenging to make a basket or whatever it is, hit the ball and then once they do that, it's gratifying, right. And when you're their teacher or you're the individual that's helping them through, that it's really gratifying. And to us we have a lot. We invest at the Operating Engineers upwards of $60,000 to $80,000 for an apprentice to go through our program, with the instructor cost and the cost that we incur as a local for an individual. So we invest a lot of money into these individuals, these guys and girls that are out in the industry right now. So it's really challenging to us, when we're up over 500 operating engineer apprentices right now in our programs, to start losing that, to go backwards.
Speaker 1:Yeah, talk me through that A to Z from a person that shows up on day one of the apprentices program until they leave, what all is involved in that.
Speaker 2:So there's requirements that we have through the different programs. We have our hoisting program, which is your crane. We have our H&P programs, which is your basically your dirt equipment, and we have our stationary side, which handles the boilers and chillers in your buildings down in Detroit, little Caesars Arena they handle the ice. So those different programs have some different requirements. But basically what we do is we put a path in line for an individual through that stepping stone of a three or four year program and when we do that we set that some guidelines for them, some parameters, so that way it helps them through that program, gets them the training that they need each year to be able to be successful. And then they also have the on-the-job training as well, that they work with the contractors out in the field to create that on-the-job program training as well.
Speaker 1:So not to create a competition here, but I'm curious. I know you and the other operating engineers 324, are very proud of the work you do. What do you find about OE324 versus your counterparts in other states? What do I find different? Do you think that because Michigan obviously put the world on wheels and such a long history in Michigan of building roads, that we're particularly innovative and advanced in what we do?
Speaker 2:Well, Jeff, I mean we are one of the probably three of the operating engineer locals in the US that have an indoor heated training facility. As you have seen, we just currently invested $24 million in the last couple of years in an indoor heated arena. We have 19 total classrooms on property. We have three training facilities in the state of Michigan and our biggest, in Howell, is 560 acres that's available to our members for training. So we are one of the leading locals as far as the operating engineers in the US and Canada. So we thrive on being the best and pushing ahead and having the technology, the skills and the resources available to our individuals to work for our contracting partners and to complete these jobs for the state of Michigan.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you've had a number of people go through your facility. I know you guys really like doing those tours and showing people everything you do. You're proud of it. Obviously, governor Whitmer, previous governors have been there. President Biden was there. You recently took your fellow transportation commissioners on a tour. What sticks with you that you hear in terms of remarks or questions that you get from these people?
Speaker 2:So, jeff, I think it goes back to, like you said before, like your grandfather had the eye for great. People don't fully understand what it takes to build a road or a building or a site project or whatever that is. They don't fully understand what goes into that. So when we start showing them the processes and the different things that go into that, and then some of the gpx technology that we're using, that basically is like a full 3d model of what that site looks like. When you walk out there on a screen in the middle of a field and they can see the utilities that are underground, they can see where the ponds are. It's really enlightening to people and it really brings some attention to what we do and how in-depth the training needs to be for these individuals.
Speaker 1:And you even get some of these people, these elected officials and dignitaries, up in the seat and let them take a crack at it right.
Speaker 2:We absolutely do Very limited time, right, but we do under a controlled, safe environment. We do that so that they have the understanding that it's not as easy as it may seem, right? We all thought that driving a vehicle was easy until you got in there and you were, you know, 14, 15, 16 years old and you were getting trained by your parents or whoever that may be. It wasn't as easy as you thought, right? 14, 15, 16 years old and you were getting trained by your parents or whoever that may be. It wasn't as easy as you thought, right? So to have them have those experiences they understand that and we've done a lot of things you know as well, with the barrier wall bill and safety and stuff and just getting those legislators on the side of the road behind barricades next to live traffic those type of things really bring you to the reality of what environment they're in, right. So having those individuals have that experience is really uplifting and really educational to them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know I can't say enough about how important both the operators and the laborers advocacy for both the barrier walls and for the automated work zone enforcement are. Too many people, especially during the pandemic, when people started to drive really fast and they still do, obviously are speeding through these work zones and I think we should all try to put ourselves in the shoes of your members and what it's like to be out there. So I'm glad you mentioned that.
Speaker 2:Anything else you can think of this, does Jeff? It's the inspectors as well, it's your team, it's the state employees in every fashion that are out there, as well as our members, that are seeing those challenges right.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely. I'm glad you mentioned that. Put an emphasis on that too. What else would you mention in terms of safety and how it informs everything you guys do in your training program?
Speaker 2:Well, like I said, we have partners with Myosha, msha. We do a lot of different training for those things. As far as safety, on-the-job safety, the different things that we do, it's just endless the things that we do for our members and our contracting partners to try to continue that safe work environment out there. Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely Well. Thank you, Heath. I appreciate you helping to explain this and flesh out what this means. People keep hearing about the jobs, but I don't think enough in the public and in the policymaking realm appreciate what we're facing if we don't get additional road funding over the next few years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's going to be devastating. You know, I just don't think that people really fully understand that every dollar that's invested in infrastructure comes back. It comes back in wages, it comes back in tax money. It comes back in wages, it comes back in tax money, it comes back in economic growth. You know, it's just it's hard sometimes to get that message across.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it truly is an investment. That's absolutely right. You can't you can't say that about every expense, but in this case it truly is an investment. Yeah, Well, thanks, Heath.
Speaker 2:All right, sir. Well, thank you for your time, appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Please stay tuned. We'll be back with more Talking Michigan Transportation right after this.
Speaker 3:Even with the best planning, backups and traffic congestion can occur during road construction. This can pose hazardous situations for both motorists and construction workers, particularly when drivers are distracted. Motorists are more likely than workers to be killed or injured in work zone-related incidents. Additionally, the leading causes of all work zone-related crashes are distracted driving and speeding. So it's crucial to do your part in ensuring the safety of both drivers and focusing on your most important task safe driving. Slow down and stay focused.
Speaker 1:Welcome back. As promised, I'm now with Karen Fawcett, who is the statewide urban and travel analysis section manager at MDOT, and she's going to talk to us about the jobs numbers that her team tracks, the calculations that they use, why it's important to do this, and I think this will complement nicely what Heath told us about the jobs on the ground and the people in the trenches. So, karen, thank you. I know this is your first time on the podcast. I appreciate you taking time to be here.
Speaker 4:Thanks, jeff, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:So why don't we start high level talk about your section and what they do, and you know how it factors into other functions within the Bureau of Planning at MDOT and the total department mission.
Speaker 4:Sure. So my section we do a lot of stuff in the Bureau of Planning that supports statewide transportation planning. We do travel forecasts, traffic forecasts, we produce the state long-range transportation plan, we do air quality conformity and this economic benefit analysis, which we do for the state long-range plan and we do annually for MDOT's five year transportation program.
Speaker 1:A big part of that economic analysis obviously is jobs. I think people know sort of instinctively that obviously when you build roads and bridges there are jobs involved in that. But they probably don't know the downstream effect that it has on jobs in the economy. And that's really what your section is all about with your job-supported statistics. So could you talk about those and how those calculations are made?
Speaker 4:Sure. So the analysis that we do for the five-year transportation program, we look at the investment each year. You know it's broken down into repair and rebuild roads and bridges and routine maintenance and safety and operations. And we have a program that we use. It's called TRATUS, which is Transportation Economic Development Impact System and it's a program that's specifically geared towards transportation and looks at the economic impacts of transportation investments. And so we run all those numbers through TREDIS and there's different impacts for the different kind of work we do, like, for instance, repair and rebuild roads and bridges. You know those impacts are primarily due to just you know spending, you know the investment that we make. That flows then through the economy. But there's other benefits that come like out of safety and operations projects, for instance. You know operations projects make it easier for businesses and residents of the state to go through their lives, get places sooner than they would have otherwise. So there's extra benefits from projects like that.
Speaker 4:The main outputs that we do get from looking at this investments that we make, we have this job supported. We have also gross regional product, labor income, output and sales. And the jobs supported that we look at aren't just specifically jobs that are those contractors out on the road, you know, building the road or doing the project, or government employees, you know, like MDOT employees, job supported, kind of run through the economy. It's, you know, those people who are hired to work on the roads. It's their spending that they do once they get paid, you know. So job supported and also includes, you know, restaurants, retail, things like that. Also the contractors. They have to spend money to buy equipment, so that's all part of it. So it's not just by MDOT investing, you know, the tax dollars that we receive, we're just not benefiting, you know, state employees or contractors. It's essentially a significant benefit to the entire state economy.
Speaker 1:So when I talked to Heath Salisbury earlier from the operators, he also correctly used the word investment, just like you did. I think it's always worth underscoring that there's all kinds of spending, maybe in the public and private sector, that you might not be able to draw a straight line from that to the future and what it means, but it absolutely is investment. When you're talking about transportation infrastructure and that's exactly what your team tries to track and tries to project Do you feel like it's getting more difficult in this era because of the funding ups and downs both at the federal and state level?
Speaker 4:Oh, definitely. And I mean if you want to add inflation to that too, because of course, dollars are not going as far as they used to. So the $1 million that you invest today gets you fewer jobs supported than it did a few years ago. But you know, looking at the funding that we've had at MDOT, you know, over the past 10 years I should say previous five years and next five years you know we had a significant investment increase with the Rebuilding Michigan Bond Program, you know, between like 2021 and 2025. And we had a big increase in the number of jobs that our program was able to support. Whereas looking at the 26 to 2030 program, it's a good amount less and it's, you know, with the uncertainty of whether we're going to get additional funding, it's difficult to, you know, predict if what we're showing today is actually going to happen, that there's more jobs supported. But those contractors and other directly impacted people are going to have to ramp up and be able to support the additional spending as well.
Speaker 1:So what you're saying right now is that without a funding agreement, without additional funding, we're looking at really kind of a double hit, both a fall off in that investment and what that means to job supported, and then also with ongoing inflation. And we still don't know what tariffs are going to mean. But you know, economists who follow these things say that they're going to lead to more inflation, so the job supported per million figure will also go down. Is that basically what you're saying?
Speaker 4:Yep, yeah, we're going to. It'll be less jobs. Bang for the buck.
Speaker 1:Talk a little bit more about the travel analysis overall and what goes into trying to predict. You know what is. You sit here right now and we're winding up a very busy summer travel season in Michigan. Are your folks already kind of looking at next year and what to expect?
Speaker 4:Oh, certainly, and you know we're. Also we're doing a statewide household travel survey right now so we can better understand what people are doing. You know we've had a lot of significant change, you know, since the pandemic, with remote work and home deliveries, and, you know, are people making the same trips that they previously have? You know what's it looking like Like? We know that, like afternoon peak travel is very similar to what it was pre-pandemic, but you know the morning peaks are still lower. So right now we're working to get a better understanding of exactly how things are shaking out post-pandemic.
Speaker 1:Is there a theory on why that would be? That's interesting.
Speaker 4:There is some amount. You know. There's a certain percentage of people who are still, you know, are still, you know, working remotely, full time, but then there's also a lot of after work activities that are still the same. So, essentially people, the theory is that people aren't leaving home, you know, in the morning, like they used to pre pandemic, but yet they're still going out and about in the afternoon as they did previously. But we'll find out soon enough if that's. You know really what people in the state are, you know, reporting back to us what your section does and what kind of stokes your passion.
Speaker 1:I know you're very knowledgeable, very good at your job, always very responsive and able to put these things in the perspective of the bigger picture, in the context of everything that's involved in a Department of Transportation planning area. But what else would you add to this?
Speaker 4:Department of Transportation planning area. But what else would you add to this? I think kind of related to this economic benefit analysis that we do, is that you know it's important to understand what an impact you know the spending that the department does have on the state and it is not insignificant at all and that we are facing a decline right now without any additional revenue, and there will be impacts to jobs. And whether that's somebody who was previously a construction worker and is no longer needed because we have a reduced um program, you know whether they're able to find work um elsewhere, in another. You know construction industry, say, home building or something else but you know chances are that you know they may have to look elsewhere for work and not be able to, you know, continue to be in the state. So I don't know. I think it's a long overlooked fact of how important transportation is within the state. Not just you know that our projects improve the roads, but that you know by doing that you know we're doing good for the state economy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, when you talk about those contractors and you think about where their operations are various offices around the state what you're talking about is the you know, the bar or restaurant or diner just down the street from there that largely relies on the workers from that particular operation and those workers decline, then so does the business for that diner or that bar. Thanks, karen, I appreciate it. I appreciate you explaining these things in this week when we're putting a lot of focus on jobs related to road construction. So thank you very much.
Speaker 4:Thanks, jeff, appreciate it.
Speaker 1:I'd like to thank you once more for tuning in to Talking Michigan Transportation. You can find show notes and more on Apple Podcasts or Buzzsprout. I also want to acknowledge the talented people who help make this a reality each week, starting with Randy Devler, who skillfully edits the audio, Jesse Ball, who proofs the content, Courtney Bates, who posts the podcast to various platforms, and Jackie Salinas, who transcribes the audio to make it accessible to all.