Talking Michigan Transportation
The Talking Michigan Transportation podcast features conversations with transportation experts inside and outside MDOT and will touch on anything and everything related to mobility, including rail, transit and the development of connected and automated vehicles.
Talking Michigan Transportation
New transportation hub a big step for travelers in Detroit
Michigan Central, opened in Detroit in 1913 and designed by the same architects as New York's Grand Central Terminal, was a towering landmark and the tallest train station in the world at the time. It was a symbol of the city’s industrial might and later, sadly, became a symbol of blight instead. Now, through the vision of Ford Motor Co. officials and others, it is a symbol again, this time of a great city’s rebirth.
This week, Gov. Gretchen Whitmer joined others in announcing a memorandum of understanding (MOU) between the Michigan Department of Transportation, the City of Detroit and Michigan Central to begin preliminary assessments for a new multimodal transportation hub located within the 30-acre Michigan Central Innovation District, on a parcel just southwest of the station.
This week’s podcast features two participants in the MOU announcement: Arun Rao, Amtrak senior director for network development in their Central Region, and Sam Krassenstein, chief of infrastructure for the City of Detroit.
Hello, welcome to the Talking Michigan Transportation Podcast. I'm Jeff Cranson. Michigan Central opened in Detroit in 1913 and designed by the same architects as New York's Grand Central Terminal. Was considered a stunning architectural landmark and was the tallest train station in the world at that time. It was a symbol of the city of Detroit's industrial might, and later, sadly, became a symbol of blight instead. Now, through the vision of folks at Ford Motor Company and many others, it's a symbol again this time of a great city's rebirth. So this week, Governor Whitmer joined others in announcing a memorandum of understanding between the Michigan Department of Transportation, the City of Detroit, and Michigan Central to begin preliminary assessments for a new multimodal transportation hub located within a 30-acre Michigan Central Innovation District on a parcel just southwest of the Michigan Central Station. MDOT is contributing some funds for it. We also secured about$10 million in federal funds for all of this. So it's truly exciting. I spoke about what all this means first with Arun Rao, who is Amtrak's senior director for network development in their central region, which includes Michigan. Then with Sam Krasenstein, who is Chief of Infrastructure for the City of Detroit. I hope you enjoy the conversation. So Arun Rao, who I mentioned in the introduction, is the Amtrak Senior Director for Network Development for the Central Region, was part of the festivities celebrating the MOU for Michigan Central and really has some good insight into what this could possibly mean. I don't want to get too far ahead of things. There's a lot to do, but we're very hopeful that this spells good things for kind of a multimodal hub, kind of restoring the original purpose of Michigan Central. So, Arun, thank you very much for taking time to be here. Could you talk about your work at Amtrak and what you do exactly? Thank you very much. Yes.
SPEAKER_03:So I am uh in the uh network development uh department at Amtrak. That department, um some of those tasks include uh planning and implementation of new or expanded uh corridors, uh improvements to existing routes, it could be extensions like this, uh and uh seeing that through from the early planning stages all the way to um implementation. And I also um have a role with developing state partnerships as well. We have a long-standing uh partnership uh with Michigan DOT for three services in Michigan uh that we operate. Michigan DOT contracts with Amtrak for the Wolverine service, uh which is the route that we're gonna be talking about today, Chicago to Detroit, and up to Pontiac, and then um also the um Chicago to Grand Rapids, Pierre Marquette, and um Chicago to Port here on uh Blue Water.
SPEAKER_01:So those three routes that we contracted with Michigan DOT for So I'll set aside for a later conversation uh my advocacy for a second line for Pierre Marquette. Those of us on the west side of the state and along the lake shore would really like to see that someday. But um that's a that's a whole nother conversation. Um talk about uh yesterday's MOU announcement and what it could possibly mean. Um, like you said, this is the Detroit to Chicago route. Um, it would mean moving the station from New Center north of downtown um to that site, and it would create a possible connection to Canada. So you could one day go by train from Chicago to Toronto, right?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's yeah. So this uh proposed project really just takes one of those Wolverine round trips and um routes it through uh Michigan Central, past the Michigan Central campus, and then into the Detroit River tunnel uh to cross over into Windsor and uh head to Windsor via rail station. So at via Windsor rail station, passengers would detrain and uh go through Canadian Customs and Immigration um at a new joint border facility in Windsor, and then they would uh proceed to a waiting via rail train to take them uh further east, or if Windsor is their final destination, they they they would be uh able to uh visit Windsor. So in the other direction, passengers would be coming from Toronto, um get off the via rail train at Windsor, and then uh go through United States Customs Border Patrol pre-clearance in Windsor at the Windsor Joint Border Facility, and then get on to a secured waiting um international Amtrak terrain that would then take them back across the border, uh would stop at uh Detroit stopping at Michigan Central and then on to Chicago uh and all those all of the Michigan communities along the route. So the new set Detroit News Center station would still be in service under this uh scenario. Um there would still be uh those the trains that proceed up to um Cognac would still be serving Detroit News Center. So this would just be one train initially uh heading to into Windsor.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, that's a good clarification. But uh I guess most importantly, when the Tigers play the Blue Jays in the playoffs next year, um uh we'll be able to take the train to get to the playoffs, although it probably won't be done that soon. So um I know you've got a lot going on in in all the states in the central region, and you don't want to pick favorites, but really this has to be the most exciting project you're working on, right?
SPEAKER_03:Well, uh I I will say it's a very exciting project. It's it really is uh tremendous in terms of the collaboration that's that's happening uh among so many different um parties. It's so simple. It's a nine closing a nine-mile gap between two well-established services. Uh, but at the same time, it's complicated because you uh we have to work with the border agencies uh and make sure we we are uh designing things uh for their needs uh so that they can do this important function in Windsor. Um we are working with folks on the Canadian side, uh Transport Canada, our partner via Rail Canada, um, on on funding of improvements and planning for improvements uh that would have to take place in Windsor. And then um, of course, all of uh our host railroads that we would be traversing for this extension, uh the local um stakeholders in Detroit and Windsor, uh who have been uh fantastic. So really uh a lot of coordination, a lot of collaboration. Um, in addition, of course, to Michigan DOT, uh, who is our primary partner with this and who um is really uh playing a leadership role for the Wolverine um and this extension.
SPEAKER_01:So you have to deal with uh a heck of a lot of things. I mean, the freight railroads share some of the lines in the Midwest, and we've got congestion issues, we've got uh freight railroad merger issues going on, we've got um constant changes at the federal level. So I guess looking at it uh in the the most futuristic way possible, what's your what's your gut tell you about the future of passenger rail travel in the Midwest?
SPEAKER_03:Uh I think uh inner city passenger rail travel in the Midwest, despite all of those challenges, is only going to increase. We are seeing increases in ridership, more demand. Um, when we introduce two new um routes across the country, including in the Midwest, um, over the past uh two years. Uh we have seen those just blow through their ridership forecasts. For example, uh the new Borealis service between uh Chicago, Milwaukee, and the Twin Cities through Wisconsin um and Minnesota far exceeded its uh ridership projections um you know in those right off the bat, right out of the gate uh as it started. So uh there's just tremendous demand, those trains are full. We just launched the Mardi Gras service between uh New Orleans and Mobile, Alabama. Same story, we are way over forecast that those trains are full. Uh there's just tremendous demand out there. There is uh definitely uh plenty of room for growth. We will have to uh continue to work well with the host railroads, with our host railroad partners. Uh it will take um, you know, uh uh continued infrastructure improvements and investment um in the railroad infrastructure, but I'm very uh uh optimistic about the success really of Amtrak um in the Midwest, and it's just a lot to build off of.
SPEAKER_01:What do you attribute that growth to? Is it uh younger generations just being interested in alternative modes of travel, or is it some of it uh a bit of nostalgia on people's parts that have just always liked trains, but maybe had concerns about reliability, or is it just all of the above?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, you know, I don't think it's really so much nostalgia. I think it's uh, you know, as you said, you know, um uh younger generations um are uh looking for other ways to travel, more productive ways uh um to travel. Uh but also um uh retirees and senior citizens are are flocking really to these new services and to our existing routes because uh you know they don't they're not interested in driving anymore um either. Uh you know, they want to have options and for some for trips where rail can work, you know, it can't work for every trip, but for the trips uh that people make where rail can work well, uh people are choosing choosing rail um if it works for them. So um yeah, I I I I'm seeing growth in in in all of those areas and in as well as uh you know student travel. Um we have a we still you know have a significant business travel component as well, you know, even after COVID. Um, you know, while there may not be as much uh daily commuting um after after COVID, you know, our our services were really not really dependent on daily commuting. They were they are you know they have a lot of business travel for business meetings for less than daily commuting, maybe it's once a week. Uh so we're seeing a lot of that as well.
SPEAKER_01:So I should clarify that when you talk about a more productive way to travel, what you mean is you can be productive while you're traveling. That's that's the pull.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely, yes, absolutely. Yeah, there's really no other mode that can match um what um Amtrak service can provide in terms of collaboration and productivity um while you're traveling with you know uh free Wi-Fi, spacious seating, plenty of room to pull out a laptop, plug it in at a power uh outlet at your seat. Uh there are also you know, four seats around, you know, four seat tables where where you know I see a lot of meetings, business meetings taking place. Um so uh really uh there's no other you know mode uh like that that can really certainly certainly playing Euchre would be considered productive, right? Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. I have to say that Amtrak has a lot of uh really interesting names for the lines around the country, but Borealis has to be one of the coolest.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, that is a really uh that is a really neat name, and and it's a it's a great service.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you're based in Wisconsin, right? So it's probably a special one for you.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, yes. I uh I worked on that project when I was with at the Wisconsin Department of Transportation uh as well. Uh so I was happy to be able to uh uh move to Amtrak and continue to work on it and see it through.
SPEAKER_01:Well, real interesting. Um before we wrap up quickly, what do you see as the next steps for you in collaboration with the department uh and the city to bring this to fruition?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so um, you know, the good news is there's a lot of components that are either already underway, well underway or are are you know um finished or fully funded, I should say. So I think the governor's announcement on uh the multimodal center is is a huge benefit. Amtrak would just be a tenant there, uh, but you know, we we we need that uh location to stop. So um that being funded is is uh a great uh milestone uh for this project. You know, the second, uh we have uh some signal uh design improvements uh with Conrail, who owns the tracks that go near uh Michigan Central. That's a we need to upgrade the signals uh system to a positive train control system that is already underway. We have a design contract going on with Conrail right now for those improvements, and uh we we will have uh construction of those improvements improvements already funded through a safety uh program that Amtrak has access to. So, really on the US side, again, one of the most important things as well, I should say, is that Amtrak and CTKC, uh the railroad that that owns and operates the Detroit River Tunnel, have an agreement, came, came into an agreement in around 2021 uh for um access to that tunnel with one round trip Amtrak train with the possibility of increasing the that to two in the future. So that really was a catalyst for uh getting this whole uh project moving. So we have all of those things in place.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I was just gonna say that's significant that you've already got that agreement.
SPEAKER_03:So yeah, yes, yeah, and so it's really now, you know, uh there's some work to do on the Canadian side. We've already had funding on the Canadian side to do some preliminary design and to engage with the border agencies. So it's continuing to engage with the border agencies, um, getting securing the funding for uh construction of those improvements in Windsor, um, and then uh uh really we'll be we'll be ready to go with our partnership with VRL Canada to make this happen.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that's great. Thanks, thanks, Arun. Um, I'll look forward to talking to you some more as this thing progresses. So thank you very much. Absolutely, thank you. And stay tuned once again. I'll be back with Sam Krasenstein, who's the chief infrastructure officer for the city of Detroit. He also participated in the event and uh has done a lot of work and has a lot of good thoughts about what this will mean to the city and actually Greater Detroit and multimodal travel. Stick around, there's more to come right after this short message.
SPEAKER_00:No before you go. Head on over to MyDrive to check out the latest on road construction and possible delays along your route. For detailed maps, head over to Michigan.gov slash drive.
SPEAKER_01:Sam Krasenstein, once again, uh repeat appearance on the podcast. I spoke earlier um with an Amtrak official about what this Michigan Central MOU could mean to them from a multimodal standpoint, but I really wanted to get your perspective uh because you're all about broader infrastructure in the city and all the things going on. So talk about what you think this means and really just how exciting it's been for you to be a part of this to come along at such a transformational time.
SPEAKER_02:Well, thank thanks again for having me uh as a as a repeat customer uh on the show. So I mean it's it's super exciting. Uh so ever since you know Ford came in and and purchased the station, we started to see what some of the plans looked like. The the potential for you know changing the neighborhood and changing the transportation landscape has been happening at a real lightning pace. So if you consider all of the changes just over the last you know five years in this part of the city, you have Ford's renovation into the train station and into developing New Lab as a hub for mobility innovation, not just locally, but but really internationally, with the type of talent and companies that are attracting. You have MDOT's investment of nearly$70 million to redo Michigan Avenue into a really cool, you know, not just like streetscape for placemaking purposes, but also an innovation corridor that's gonna have a lot of cool technology, which could include like you know, traditional EV charging. We're looking at the Electrion pilot, we're looking at the latest signal and pedestrian detection technology. And it's really a lot of cool things happening there. And then on the far side of Corktown, you have the new DCFC stadium that is proposed to open as soon as early 2027, which you're gonna have a new 15,000-person uh arena for the soccer stadium as well as concert venue. So you have a lot of interesting things that are happening in the background that have either already come to fruition or that are proposed over the next few years. And now you have this$40 million investment in the new multimodal transportation hub, which is, you know, a fancy way of saying we're gonna have the Amtrak station be here in the city, as well as the inner city bus terminal, both that are located at, you know, other parts of the city, and the facilities aren't, you know, I would say they're they're in need of updates.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and you can take a bus from somewhere in Metro Detroit and get on the Amtrak train and go ultimately to Chicago or Toronto and uh never have to use your car, right?
SPEAKER_02:That's definitely part of it. Um but I think like the I would say the even bigger part of it is like you have the the true gateway into the city. So by even if people aren't transferring between modes, the fact that we have all the modes in one place and we create a really positive and bustling environment for people that are coming into the city and coming through the city all in one place, I think is going to be pretty impactful, not just for but for not just for the neighborhood in the city, but for the whole region. So I think like this is the you know the type of investment that starts to kickstart other things. And it gets us thinking about all right, well, is there actually a future in commuter rail that could eventually connect Ann Arbor, Metro Airport, Dearborn, and uh City of Detroit? Uh and we start really thinking through, all right, well, what else does this open up? Could we have the RTA buses from the airport and Ann Arbor stop here? What does commuter rail look like? We have the inner city buses, and I think it allows for a lot more service expansion once everything is consolidated into one place. You consider it today, you have RTA stopping at different points in downtown, you have um, you know, you have the Amtrak station up in New Center, you have the the buses all the way down on Howard Street, and you have everything else kind of scattered in between. So I think getting everything consolidated is gonna have immense benefits just to having like one central location, and it's gonna result in a better experience across all the modes, I think.
SPEAKER_01:So you talked about the Michigan Avenue, the technology and everything that's going on in in Corktown, which is just really incredible. I mean, I don't know, it's safe to say it's it's not your father's Corktown, it's really not even your grandfather's. Maybe it's gonna be your great grandfather's Corktown because that was once a bustling, thriving neighborhood.
SPEAKER_02:Glad if I can interrupt you, but with newer bricks.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, with newer bricks, that's right. Yeah, no, good point. So, but talk about that. I mean, what uh what's going on there and then what Michigan Central as such a towering presence means as a symbol of the city's rebirth.
SPEAKER_02:It's the whole, like, you know, we we call it streetscaping, it's activation of the commercial corridor. So you think about bringing back the neighborhoods, and we've been on this concept of how do we do more investment in the neighborhoods along the street and create the kind of density that really has not existed in the city for, you know, decades. And I think this is, you know, the symbol of having an institution there is great, but it's also coming with, you know, the activation of the businesses along the corridor. You have the choice neighborhoods grant that the city won through HUD a few years ago that's adding thousands of units of residential density into the neighborhoods within Corktown, within North Corktown, and the areas surrounding. Uh, and so it's it, they're all kind of key pieces together that individually, you know, they're all making little incremental bits of change, even if some are bigger increments. But it when you look at the whole picture together between the new density, the new businesses, the new road infrastructure, the new train station, the new soccer stadium, it's like, wow, this is like truly transformational. We are building not just redoing the whole neighborhood and revitalizing it and like adding amenities that the existing residents can enjoy, but we're also creating a whole lot of new amenities and new space for new residents and businesses to come to the area.
SPEAKER_01:So Governor Whitmer's announcement of the memorandum of understanding was just one part of this larger vision, but it's a but it's a crucial part. Um we don't have to get into all of the obstacles along the way that that got us to this point, but but talk about overcoming some of those challenges and and you know, probably what it meant to you to be able to stand there and and see this moment.
SPEAKER_02:Well, it's it's really cool because we've been talking about it for so long, and the devil's always been in the details. So, you know, with the funding, it's there's some nuance, but it's important to realize like we are you know using some federal funding in this, we're using uh we're using a good bit of state funding that's going into this, uh, all from different sources. So part of the equation was all right, well, where is the different funding available that we could put towards this project? And you know, part of this was taking a lot of lessons learned from the New Center Intermodal facility uh and understanding, well, why were we not successful in planning and designing that project? And what can we do to make that project be successful here? And a lot of that came to like early stakeholder engagement, having really strong partners that really wanted the facility uh that could also help like, you know, help design it successfully. So figuring out the funding piece, having the early stakeholder buy-in were both like really important pieces. Um, contractually, like this is a detail, but it's a really interesting and important one. The way the MOU is set up uh is that Detroit Transportation Corporation, who you know historically has just been over the people mover, uh, is also gonna serve a really interesting role in being really the um the responsible fiduciary that's gonna be responsible for the contracting and overseeing the design, feasibility, and construction of the of the station ultimately. But it's really interesting for DTC and People Mover because at the same time, we're also studying the expansion and future of the people mover, whether it's through elevated rail or streetcars or enhanced bus service. And Corktown is very hot on that list for how do we have that connection between the existing fixed rail transit service that we have downtown and Michigan Central, where about to invest a lot of money in a true transportation hub. And so the question's gonna be how do you ultimately connect them together?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, with the location of LCA and obviously Comerica Park and Ford Field, um the people movers path isn't ideal anymore. So some changes there would probably be very welcome. So on a personal note, I mean, you came to Michigan from somewhere else from Pittsburgh, which was uh uh you know a couple decades ahead of Detroit in terms of its rebirth and resurgence. Um it's you know a city that's really doing well. Downtown is is really bustling. So what is it, what do you hear from friends and family when you tell them the Detroit story and they kind of roll their eyes and maybe they haven't been there. So how do you talk about that?
SPEAKER_02:Well, well, number one, I a lot of friends and family try to recruit me to oh, you should you should come back to Pittsburgh and and do a lot of this stuff here. Um but uh you know, I think it's a people want to see it for themselves. So, you know, take my parents, for example, you know, really no connection to Detroit, they just come up to visit, but they've seen like the press around Michigan Central and they've said, wow, we've heard all these good things about the station. Can we we want to go visit the station while we're here? Um and I think for a lot of people that are not part of the city, the story is just so compelling. A lot of people now want to come to Detroit just to see these different things that are that are taking shape, the station being one of them. But I would say the other one that's on the horizon that's you know, related, unrelated is the Gordy Howe Bridge. So you think about one of the cool things with the station is you know, we're rebuilding the Detroit to Windsor and thereby the overall connection to Toronto on building a better, you know, US, Canada, Detroit, Windsor, uh, Ontario, Michigan, whatever, whichever, you know, zoom you want to take, the relationship there. And the Gordy How Bridge is another thing that's on the horizon that's gonna happen before that. And I think it all goes towards like building these stronger connections with our, you know, with our cross-border colleagues to the to the south. Uh, and they all kind of build off of each other, which is really interesting.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm glad you pointed out that it's to the south. Not a lot of people realize that. And you probably didn't before you came to Detroit.
SPEAKER_02:It's take taking me a few years to understand.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it throws off your sense of direction. Well, that's all good, Sam. I I should say congratulations to you and your uh your counterparts at the city, and certainly the collaboration with with MDOT and Amtrak and the RTA and countless others that'll be part of this as we go forward. Is there anything else you want to add?
SPEAKER_02:The next thing is going to be to figure out the you know investment and support on the Canadian side so that we can have that cross-border service. So we're really looking at this in phases where, you know, our our phase one is let's get the station built, let's get the Wolverine train to stop at Michigan Central. The next phase is all right, once we have the Canadian infrastructure built, you know, really no improvements are needed to the tunnel. But on the other side, working through the track design and stations and customs issues to allow the Canadian cross-border service to take place is gonna be really cool. So, you know, the announcement is kind of lumping it all together as one thing, but really I think we're gonna see it in stages. The opening of the station first, the Wolverine train stopping at Michigan Central, and then second will be, you know, it continuing through the tunnel, up over and back into back into Windsor. So it's gonna be really interesting to watch now that the funding's in place, these different puzzle pieces start to take form to ultimately realize the vision.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, Arun from Amtrak made that point that uh the the agreement is already in place for the tunnel. So that's that's that's a really good start right there.
SPEAKER_02:It is. Uh so you know, we're really lucky to have such good collaborative partners. So, you know, working not just with our US colleagues for, you know, Amtrak and MDOT um in the other communities, but it's also like via rail, Essex Terminal Rail, um, you know, the the province, the city of Windsor, and all of our Canadian partners on having that vision that we're all you know working towards on our respective sides of the border.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's it's a good time to be the infrastructure officer in Detroit. A good time to be in Detroit. Yes, it is. So thanks again, Sam, as always. I appreciate you taking time to talk. I'd like to thank you once more for tuning in to Talking Michigan Transportation. You can find show notes and more on Apple Podcasts or Bud Sprout. I also want to acknowledge the talented people who help make this a reality each week, starting with Randy Debler, who skillfully edits the audio, Jesse Ball, who proofs the content, Courtney Bates, who posts the podcast to various platforms, and Jackie Salinas, who transcribes the audio to make it accessible to all.