Talking Michigan Transportation

Reprise: Focusing on the work force as we enter a new road construction season

• Michigan Department of Transportation • Season 8 • Episode 258

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 27:43

As road agencies across the state prepare for the 2026 road and bridge construction season, this week’s Talking Michigan Transportation podcast is a reprise of an August 2025 episode that focused on jobs tied to road and bridge building.

Gov. Gretchen Whitmer sent a letter Aug. 7, 2025, to the directors of the Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) and the Michigan Department of Labor and Economic Opportunity (LEO), calling on them to compile and publicly release data on the impact of the state’s road funding cliff and federal funding rollbacks and policies on Michigan’s economy and employment. 

First, Heath Salisbury, financial secretary and training director for Operating Engineers 324, talked about what investments in infrastructure mean to people in the skilled trades and the thousands of jobs involved. 

Salisbury offers his own perspective as a veteran of the industry, working in the trenches, then later in training workers and developing a work force capable of building in a modern environment where technology is evolving rapidly.

Later, Karen Faussett, who manages MDOT’s statewide and urban travel analysis section, talked about how her team tracks the economic benefits of investment in transportation infrastructure.

Setup And Encore Context

Jeff Cranson

Hello, welcome to the Talking Michigan Transportation Podcast. I'm Jeff Cranson. We're preparing for the 2026 road and bridge construction season, so it seemed like a good time for a reminder about the jobs supported and vital economic benefits of both the road work and a reliable transportation network. We're reprising an episode from August 2025 when I spoke with Heath Salisbury, who is the Financial Secretary and Training Director for Operating Engineers 324. He's now also the chairman of the Michigan Transportation Commission. He talked about what investments in infrastructure mean to people in the skilled trades, thousands of jobs that are involved. Later, I spoke to Karen Faussett, who manages MDOT's statewide and urban travel analysis section. And she talked about how her team tracks the economic benefits of investment in transportation infrastructure and calculates the number of jobs supported by each project. So I hope you enjoy this encore presentation. So Heath Salisbury, who I mentioned before, is the Financial Secretary and Training Director for Operating Engineers 324. He's also the vice chair of the State Transportation Commission. Heath, thank you very much for taking time to do this. Yeah, no problem. So I've talked to you before, and this has really heated up as an issue lately. Uh what it means to jobs and to the economy to have ongoing road and bridge construction. Um it's a it's a vital part of the economy in terms of getting goods to market and delivering commuters where they need to go. But it also supports a number of jobs, especially in the construction industry, which is what you're most familiar with. Talk a little bit about what you do with the operators and why this is such a vital topic.

Heath Salisbury

So what I do with the operators now currently is we um we train the individuals that are uh members of our local um in our apprentice programs and also our journeymen um that work for the contractors that are uh doing these projects for the state of Michigan, parking on the roads. So, in doing that, this is very important to us because if we have road funding, then we can continue our programs, we can continue training our members and our apprentices. If we don't have Sundays, those things slow down tremendously. The contractor's workload slows down tremendously.

Funding Cliffs And Job Stakes

Jeff Cranson

So we're recording this on August 21st. It happens to coincide to the day that the governor asked both the Department of Labor and Economic Opportunity and MDOT, the Michigan Department of Transportation, to respond to some specific questions about what kinds of jobs are affected by road construction, road repairs. We know that that can be up to 21,000 jobs annually that are supported by road construction without additional funding. Um, we're facing a huge cliff. And you see that in your members and in your training. So talk a little bit about how you guys um explain that to the public and why I guess put some meat on the bones of what this actually means.

Heath Salisbury

So, what this means to us and our membership is that the less funding we have, the less opportunities are out there. Um, and then so for example, if this clip happens, um, it slows down enough that the individuals get laid off uh in the in the winter season, and or if there is not work. Um, so when that happens, we've trained these individuals. We spent the time and the money, and the contractors have spent the time and the money to train these individuals, and we end up losing to other states that have funding. Um, our neighboring states that are very close have funding, and we potentially could lose the individuals that we spent our hard-earned time and money training to the other states that are surrounding us, and that's challenging for us. And the contractors have a bunch of investment and machinery and stuff, and we have investment in the workers because the trains, and that's just it's a drain to our um our workforce in the state of Michigan.

Jeff Cranson

So I should have started with this, but um, as we get into this further and what that training means and what kinds of jobs these are, talk about your background and you know what you did before you uh rose to the job that you're in now.

Heath Salisbury

So, Jeff, I started out um working for um some construction companies in my youth, uh, spent a few years in college, uh working for an environmental company at night when I was doing that. Um, worked for a family business, worked for multiple contractors in the industry after that, and uh just kind of rose up through the ranks in, you know, as laborer on the ground and then got in the operators union, and then this rose up through the ranks and you know, operating equipment as a foreman, as a superintendent. And I just, you know, I ran a bunch of bigger road projects and airport projects before I came on staff with the operating engineers uh over 11 years ago.

Jeff Cranson

So talk about your work with heavy equipment and what you were what you were operating and what's involved in that, because um, it's another one of those things that I think we all just take for granted. We drive by uh worker zone at construction site and see those cranes whirling about and see bulldozers and backhoes and don't really think about what goes into those operations.

Heath Salisbury

And so, Jeff, I mean, it's like anything. The more you do it, the better you are, the better trained you are, the more practice you have, the safer you are. Um, and so my background comes from the dirt and the underground utility side. That's the equipment that I ran the bulldozers, the excavators, the scrapers, the loaders, um, those types of equipment that you'd see on your road projects.

Jeff Cranson

So, my grandpa was an operator, I've told you before, and uh had one of the first backhoes in southern Michigan actually in the early 50s. And um, he always prided himself on having a tremendous eye for grade. You know, he could sit in the seat and look down in the hole where uh drain field was going in or field tile and tell you that needs to come up an inch or two inches. Um, you don't really need a good eye for grade anymore with GPS and technology, right?

Heath Salisbury

Correct. I mean, you still have to have it because sometimes those things go out. Um, and that's unique, that's the way I started out, you know, having the eye for grade or being able to feel it in the seat, as they call it. Um, as the machine would tip forward, you're controlling that blade or bucket the other way as a reaction to that to keep a smooth level plane. Um, and that's how you that's how you create a grade. Now we have, like you said, the GPS equipment that helps us with that stuff and actually automated. So it's actually really nice.

Jeff Cranson

Yeah, but as you do that training and you find people that really take to it, you know, they obviously might not know for sure. They think it sounds interesting and they think they can probably make a pretty good living, but they don't know until you get them to the center and get them on the equipment. And um, you know, talk about that. What a what a thrill it is when you see somebody really take to it and take off, a young person that um, you know, sees that this is something I can really succeed at.

Skills, Tech, And GPS On Site

Heath Salisbury

So, Jeff, it's like anything. I compare a lot of what we do in life to sports, and uh, I compare these things to, you know, it's the first time that you see somebody that's challenging to make a basket or uh whatever it is, hit the ball. And then once they do that, it's gratifying, right? And when you're their teacher or you're the individual that's helping them through that, um, it's really gratifying. Um, and to us, we have a lot. Uh, we invest at the operating engineers upwards of $60,000 to $80,000 for an apprentice to go through our program, uh, what the instructor cost and the cost that we occur as the locals for an individual. So we invest a lot of money into these individuals, these guys and girls that are out in the industry right now. Um, so it's really challenging to us when we're up over 500 uh operating engineer apprentices right now in our programs um to start losing that, to go backwards.

Jeff Cranson

Yeah. Talk me through that A to Z from a person that shows up on day one of the apprenticeship program until they leave. What is all involved in that?

Heath Salisbury

So there are requirements that we have um through the different programs. So we have our hoisting program, which is your crane, um, we have our HP programs, which is your basically your dirt equipment, um, and we have our stationary side, which uh handles the boilers and chillers um in your buildings down in Detroit. Uh, Little Caesars Arena, they handle the ice. So those different programs have some different um requirements. But basically, what we do is we put a path in line for an individual um through that stepping stone of a three or four-year program. And when we do that, we set that um some guidelines for them, some parameters, so that way it helps them through that program, gets them the training that they need each year to be able to be successful. And then they also have the on-the-job training as well that they work with the contractors um out in the field to create that on-the-job program training as well.

Jeff Cranson

So, not to uh you know create a competition here, but I'm curious. I know you're you and the other operating engineers 324 are very proud of the work you do. Um, what do you find about OE 324 versus your counterparts in other states?

Heath Salisbury

What do I find different?

Jeff Cranson

Well, what do you think that because of Michigan obviously uh with the world on wheels and such a long history in Michigan of building roads um that we're particularly innovative and advanced in what we do?

Heath Salisbury

Well, Jeff, I mean, we are one of the probably three of the operating engineer locals in the U.S. that have uh an indoor heated training facility, as you have seen. Uh, we just currently invested $24 million in the last couple of years in an indoor heated arena. Um, we have 19 total classrooms on property. Um we have three training facilities in the state of Michigan, and our biggest uh in Howell is 560 acres that's available to our members for training. So um we are one of the leading uh locals as far as the operating engine is in the US and Canada. Um, so we thrive on being the best and pushing ahead and having the technology, the skills, and the resources available to our individuals to work for our contracting partners and to complete these jobs um for the state of Michigan.

Michigan’s Training Edge And Facilities

Jeff Cranson

Yeah, and you've had uh a number of people go through your facility. I know you guys really like doing those tours and showing people everything you do. You're proud of it, obviously. Um, Governor Whitmer, previous governors had been there. President Biden was there. Um, you recently took your fellow transportation commissioners on a tour. What sticks with you that you hear in terms of remarks or questions that uh that you get from these people?

Heath Salisbury

So, Jeff, I think it goes back to, like you said before, like your grandfather had the eye for grade. Um, people don't fully understand what it takes to build a road or a building or a site project or whatever that is, they don't fully understand what goes into that. So when we start showing them the processes and the different things that go into that, and then some of the GPX technology that we're using, um, that basically is like a full 3D model of what that site looks like when you walk out there on a screen in the middle of a field, uh, and they can see the utilities that are underground, they can see where the ponds are. It's really enlightening the people and it really brings uh some attention to what we do and how in depth the training needs to be within the regola.

Jeff Cranson

And you even get some of these people, these uh elected officials and dignitaries, uh up in the seat and let them take a crack at it, right?

Heath Salisbury

Uh we absolutely do. Um very limited time, right? But uh we do uh under a controlled, safe environment, um, we do that so that they have the understanding that um it's not as easy as it may seem, right? Um we all thought that driving a vehicle was easy until you got in there and you were, you know, 14, 15, 16 years old and you were getting trained by your parents or who that may eat. Uh it wasn't as easy as you thought, right? Um, so to have them have those experiences, um, they understand that. And you've got a lot of things you you know as well with the barrier wall bill and safety and stuff, and just getting those legislators on the side of the road uh behind barricades, uh next to live traffic, those types of things really bring you to the reality of what environment they're in, right? So um having those individuals have that experience can really be uplifting and really educational to all.

Jeff Cranson

Yeah, I know I can't say enough about how important both the operators and the laborers' advocacy for both the barrier walls and for the automated work zone enforcement are too many people, uh, especially during the pandemic when people started to drive really fast and they still do obviously, um, are speeding through these work zones. And um I think we should all try to put ourselves in the shoes of of your members and what it's like to be out there. So I'm I'm glad you mentioned that. Anything else you can think of I discussed?

Safety, Work Zones, And Advocacy

Heath Salisbury

? yep, it's the inspectors as well, it's your team. Um, it's the uh state employees in every fashion that are out there as well as our members that are that are seeing those challenges, right?

Jeff Cranson

Yes, absolutely. I'm glad you mentioned that. Uh that put an emphasis on that too. What else would you uh mention in terms of safety and how it informs everything you guys do in your training program?

Heath Salisbury

Um well, look like I said, we have partners with MIOSHA, uh, MSHA. Uh we do a lot of different training for those things uh as far as safety on the job safety, the different things that we do. Um it's just endless the things that uh that we do for our members and our contracting partners to try to continue that that safe work environment out there, right? Yeah, absolutely.

Jeff Cranson

Well, thank you, Heath. I uh I appreciate you um you know helping to explain this and flesh out what this means. People keep hearing about the jobs, but I don't think uh enough in the public and in the policymaking realm appreciate what we're facing if we don't get uh additional road funding over the next few years.

Heath Salisbury

Yeah, I think it's gonna be devastating. Um, you know, I just don't think that people really fully understand that. What every dollar that's invested in infrastructure comes back, comes back in wages, comes back in tax money, comes back in economic growth. Uh, you know, it's just it's just hard sometimes to get that message across.

Jeff Cranson

Yeah, it truly is an investment. That's absolutely right. You can't you can't say that about every expense, but in this case, it truly is an investment. Yeah. Well, thanks, Heath. All right, sir. Well, thank you for your time. Appreciate it. Please stay tuned. We'll be back with more talking Michigan transportation right after this.

MDOT Message

Even with the best planning, backups and traffic congestion can occur during road construction. This can pose hazardous situations for both motorists and construction workers, particularly when drivers are distracted. Motorists are more likely than workers to be killed or injured in work zone-related incidents. Additionally, the leading causes of all work zone-related crashes are distracted driving and speeding. So it's crucial to do your part in ensuring the safety of both drivers and focusing on your most important task, safe driving. Slow down and stay focused.

Safety PSA Break

Jeff Cranson

Welcome back. As promised, I'm now with Karen Faussett, who is the statewide urban and travel analysis section manager at MDOT. Um, and she's going to talk to us about the jobs numbers that her team tracks, the calculations that they use, uh, why it's important to do this. And I think this will complement nicely what Heath told us about the jobs on the ground and the people in the trenches. Um, so Karen, thank you. I know this is your first time on the podcast. I appreciate you taking time to be here.

Karen Faussett

Thanks, Jeff. Thanks for having me.

Enter Karen Fawcett And Her Team

Jeff Cranson

So why don't we start high-level? Um, talk about uh your section and what they do and uh you know how it factors into other functions within the Bureau of Planning at MDOT and the total department mission.

Karen Faussett

Sure. Um, so my section, we do a lot of stuff um in the Bureau of Planning that supports um statewide transportation planning. We do um travel forecasts, traffic forecasts. Um we produce the state long range transportation plan, we do air quality conformity, um, and this economic benefit analysis, which um we do for the state long range plan and we do annually for um MDOT's five-year transportation program.

Jeff Cranson

A big part of that economic analysis, obviously, is jobs. Um, I think people know sort of instinctively that obviously when you build roads and bridges, uh there are jobs involved in that, but they probably don't know the downstream effect that it has on jobs in the economy. And that's really what your section is all about with your job-supported statistics. So, could you talk about those and how those calculations are made?

How MDOT Calculates Jobs Supported

Karen Faussett

Sure. So um the analysis that we do for the five-year transportation program, um, we look at the investments um each year. Um, you know, it's broken down into repair and rebuild roads and bridges and routine maintenance and safety and operations. Um, and we have a program that we use, it's called the TREDIS, which is Transportation Economic Development Impact System. And um it's a um program that's specifically, you know, geared towards transportation and looks at um the economic impacts of transportation investments. And so um we run all those numbers um through TREDIS. And, you know, there's different impacts um for the different kinds of work we do. Like for instance, you know, repair and rebuild roads and bridges, you know, those impacts are primarily due to just you know spending, you know, the investment that we make that flows then through the economy. Um, but there's other benefits that come, like out of safety and operations projects. For instance, you know, operations projects make it easier for um businesses and residents of the state to um, you know, go through their lives, get places um sooner than they would have otherwise. So there's um extra benefits from projects like that. Um the main outputs that we do get from looking at this um investments that we make, you know, we have this job supported, we have uh also gross regional product, layer income, output, and sales. And the jobs supported that we look at aren't just specifically jobs that are those contractors out on the road, you know, building the building the road or doing the project or government employees, you know, like MDOT employees. Jobs supported kind of run through the economy. It's you know, those people who are hired to work on the roads, it's their spending that they do once they get paid, you know. So, job supported and also includes, you know, restaurants, retail, things like that. Also, um the contractors, they have to spend money to buy equipment. So that's all part of it. So, um it's not just by I'm not investing, you know, the tax dollars that we receive, we're just not benefiting, you know, state employees or contractors. It's essentially a you know, a significant benefit to the entire state economy.

Inflation, Funding Swings, And Uncertainty

Jeff Cranson

So when I talked to Heath Salisbury earlier from the operators, he also um correctly used the word investment, just like you did. I think it's always worth underscoring that um there there's all kinds of spending, maybe in the public and private sector, that you might not be able to draw a straight line from that to the future and what it means. But um it absolutely is investment when you're talking about transportation infrastructure. And that's exactly what your team tries to track and tries to project. Do you feel like uh like it's getting more difficult in this era because of you know the funding ups and downs, both at the federal and state level?

Karen Faussett

Oh, definitely. And I mean, if you want to like add inflation to that too, because of course dollars are not going as far as they used to. So the million one million dollars that you invest today gets you fewer job supported than it did a few years ago. But you know, looking at the funding that we've had at MDOT, you know, over the past 10 years, I should say previous five years and next five years, you know, we had a significant investment increase with the Rebuilding Michigan Bond program, you know, between like 2021 and 2025. Um, and we had a big increase in the number of jobs that our program was able to support. Whereas looking at the 26 to 2030 program, um, it's a good amount less. And it's, you know, with the uncertainty of whether we're going to get additional funding, it's difficult to um, you know. predict if what we're showing today is actually going to happen. Or, you know, if we do get additional funding, we will expect, you know, good news that there's more jobs supported. But, you know, those contractors and other directly impacted people are going to have to ramp up and be able to support the additional spending as well.

Travel Trends And Post‑Pandemic Patterns

Jeff Cranson

So what you're saying right now is that without a funding agreement, without additional funding, we're looking at really kind of a double hit, both a fall off in that investment and what that means to job supporting. And then also with ongoing inflation and we still don't know what tariffs are going to mean, but um you know economists who follow these things say that they're going to lead to more inflation. So the job supported per million figure will also go down. Is that that basically what you're saying?

Karen Faussett

Yep. Yeah we're going to it'll be less jobs bang for the buck.

Jeff Cranson

Talk a little bit more about uh the travel analysis overall and what goes into um trying to predict you know what is as you sit here right now and we're winding up a very busy summer travel season in Michigan. Are your folks already kind of looking at next year and what to expect?

Economic Ripples Beyond Construction

Karen Faussett

Oh certainly and you know we're also we're doing a um a statewide household travel survey right now so we can better understand um what people are doing. You know we've had a lot of significant change you know since the pandemic with remote work and um home deliveries and you know are people um making the same trips that they previously have you know what's it looking like we know that like afternoon um peak travel is very similar to what it was pre-pandemic, but you know the morning peaks are still lower. So right now we're working to get a a better understanding of exactly how things are shaking out um post-pandemic. What is there a theory on why that would be that's uh that's interesting there is some amount you know there's a certain percentage of people who are still you know working remotely full time um but then there's also a lot of afterwork activities that are still the same. So essentially people the theory is that people aren't leaving home you know in the morning like they used to pre-pandemic, but yet they're still going out and about in the afternoon as they did previously but we'll find out soon enough if that's you know really what people in the state are you know reporting back to us.

Jeff Cranson

Yeah that's interesting it'll be very uh interesting to follow that. Well is there anything else you want to say about um you know what your section does and uh you know what kind of stokes your passion I know um you're very knowledgeable very good at your job um always very responsive and able to put these things in the perspective of the bigger picture in the context of everything that's involved in a Department of Transportation planning area. But uh what else would you add to this?

Closing Thanks And Credits

Karen Faussett

I think kind of related to this this economic benefit analysis of the um that we do is that you know it's important to understand what an impact you know the spending that the department does have on the state and it is not in insignificant at all. And you know that we are facing a decline right now without any additional revenue and there will be you know impacts um you know two jobs and whether that's you know somebody who was previously a construction worker and is you know no longer needed because we have a reduced um program you know whether they're able to find work um elsewhere in another cons you know construction industry say home building or something else but you know chances are that you know they may have to look elsewhere for work and not be able to you know continue um to be in the state so um I don't know I think it's a it's a long overlooked fact of how important transportation is within the state not just you know that our projects improve the roads but that you know by doing that you know we're doing good for the state economy.

Jeff Cranson

Yeah I mean when you talk about those contractors and you think about where their operations are um various offices around the state um what you're talking about is the you know the bar or restaurant or diner just down the street from there that uh largely relies on the workers from that particular operation and if those workers decline then so does the business for that diner or that bar. Thanks Karen um appreciate it I appreciate you uh explaining these things and this week when we're putting a lot of focus on jobs related to road construction so thank you very much. Thanks Jeff appreciate it I'd like to thank you once more for tuning in to Talking Machine Transportation. You can find show notes and more on Apple Podcasts or Buzzprout. I also want to acknowledge the talented people who help make this a reality each week starting with Randy Debler who skillfully edits the audio Jesse Ball who proofs the content Courtney Bates who hosts the podcast to various platforms and Jacke Salinas who transcribes the audio to make it accessible to all.