Reimagining the U.S. Interstate system at 70

A national effort, entitled the “Reimagining America’s Interstates” initiative, is collecting comments on new interstate facility suggestions, feedback on major upgrades needed on existing routes, and how the system can better meet the needs of the 21st century traveling public. 

The Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) announced this new initiative during a June 30 media event that also celebrated the 70th anniversary of the “Dwight D. Eisenhower National System of Interstate and Defense Highways,” created when President Dwight Eisenhower signed into law the Federal Aid Highway Act of 1956, along with the unveiling of “Freedom 250” highway signs in celebration of that anniversary. 

On this week’s Talking Michigan Transportation podcast, Jim Tymon, executive director of the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials (AASHTO), who participated in the event, talks about what the Interstate system has meant to the country and what could come out of the initiative. 

The initiative will spur renewed conversation about the benefits of the system as well as some unintended consequences and focus on ideas for improvement.

Transcript

Welcome And Today’s Big Idea

Jeff Cranson 0:07

Hello, welcome to the Talking Michigan Transportation Podcast I'm Jeff Cranson. This week I spoke with Jim Tymon, who is the executive director of the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials, otherwise known as AASHTO, about participating in a recent event where he and some federal highway administration officials and officials from other state DOTs launched an initiative to reimagine America's interstate. The whole idea is to collect comments and seek input from states around the country about what they'd like to see in terms of improvements and how we can rethink the interstate system, which is turning 70 years old this year. So he had a lot to say about the history and how we got here and what might come out of that, and about what AASHTO does in general in terms of lobbying on the Hill for funding and other issues important to the state DOTs it represents. So I hope you enjoy the conversation. Once

What AASHTO Does For State DOTs

Jeff Cranson 1:08

again, I'm with Jim Tymon, who is the executive director of the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials (AASHTO). Jim, talk a little bit first, and thank you for taking time to do this. Talk a little bit first about uh what you do, what your role at AASHTO is, and maybe how you made your way to that spot. And then uh we'll jump into the news at hand, which is about the launching of a project to reimagine America's interstates.

Jim Tymon 1:38

Well, first, thanks for having me here, Jeff. Uh, really appreciate uh the ability to be able to chat with you a little bit today. Um, as you mentioned, I'm with AASHTO, the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials. I serve as the executive director. Uh, I've been with AASHTO about 13 years now. I've been in this role as the executive director for uh, I guess about seven years. And uh it's just uh a great opportunity for me to be able to work at an organization where we represent the state DOT perspective here in Washington, D.C. So uh we operate similar to most other trade associations in that we make sure that we're representing our members' interests in Washington, D.C. as we work with Congress as well as with uh with the administration to make sure that they understand what the priorities are of states as they develop policies and regulations and legislation. Uh, but where we're a little different as an organization is the vast majority of the work that we do is to bring experts together from state DOTs across the country to be able to share best practices, to be able to leverage the expertise that we have with the Michigan DOT so that somebody in Iowa or in New Hampshire can learn from the experts in Michigan. And uh it's just a great opportunity for us to be able to bring that community together and leverage just the expertise that's been developed over the years uh in that community.

Jeff Cranson 3:09

I'm glad you said that because I think those peer exchanges and those committees are the best thing going for us. And uh I'm always it's always my first question. I think some people in the department um get a little tired of it, but when they bring something up, my first question is well, you know, what are other states doing? Like, let's find that out. We don't have to reinvent anything here.

Jim Tymon 3:29

Exactly. But why reinvent the wheel when you know when another state has already gone through that? And you know, one of the great things I think about Ashto is as you move up within your organization, there might be a time where you're the only person in your organization that's doing that job. And what we provide is the ability to connect you with people that are doing that job somewhere else around the country. Because at some point, you're probably going to get into a situation where it's new to you, but it might not be new to somebody in a different part of the country that's been through that. So let's leverage that experience that they've had so that you're not just breaking new ground on your own. You're able to learn from the experience that maybe somebody else has had in a different state.

Why Standards And Peer Learning Matter

Jim Tymon 4:14

Uh, the other thing I'll I have to say is that you know, we do so much on the standard side from a technical standpoint, right? Where we bring experts together from state DOTs across the country to develop engineering standards, to, you know, when we're building bridges, uh, highway construction design, uh, we make sure that we're we're bringing together the experts and the state DOTs from all 50 states, the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico, uh, to be able to develop those standards. And our engineering standards are not just the gold standard here in the US, but really internationally as well. You know, we're regularly meeting with people from other countries that say they use the AASHTO technical standards as they build out their infrastructure, uh, which is really uh it's a good opportunity for us to remember that you know, at the core of what we do as an organization, uh we're relying on the technical experts that reside in the state DOTs uh to make sure that we're developing our nation's infrastructure uh as to be you know the best infrastructure that can be built in the world.

Jeff Cranson 5:24

Yeah, so it's kind of a baked-in quality assurance process, really. That's what you're talking about.

Jim Tymon 5:28

Absolutely. Yeah.

How Federal Funding Really Works

Jeff Cranson 5:30

So I I think I wanted to talk to you about um this initiative launched last week, Reimagining America's Interstates. You were part of that, along with um Sean McMaster, who's the administrator of the Federal Highway Administration, and uh a couple of the top DOT officials from other states involved in Ashto. But uh first I want to I want to set the table by talking about uh your work, both before you were executive director and especially as executive director, um, to uh to lobby the legislature for funding. Um, you know, in in a state like Michigan, we have term limits. Um every two years we're educating a new crap of lawmakers about how transportation funding works. And that's uh that's tedious, as you can guess, and frustrating because you're always starting over again. It's not the same with Congress. There are no term limits. Some of those people are there long enough to build up a pretty good knowledge base if they stay with the committee and you get to know these people. And reauthorizations run longer than usually our our funding plans do at the state level. But how do you how do you avoid that, I guess, that frustration of like, oh my God, this reauthorization is ending again. I got to start over again. Um, you know, you're always the guy with your handout, right? How does that how does that feel?

Jim Tymon 6:48

Well, you know, I uh before I came to AASHTO, I spent uh about 12 and a half years on Capitol Hill. I worked for the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, and that's the legislation that I worked on when I was there. You know, I had the opportunity to work with members of Congress and other congressional staff to develop two of those surface transportation reauthorization bills, the uh safety loo and back in the mid-2000s, and then uh MAP 21 in uh in the early 2010s. So it I've had that experience in kind of working with Congress and you know, providing a little bit of background and education on what the programs do and what the role of the federal government is when it comes to surface transportation, uh, but also really working with them to figure out what are their ideas, what are the members, what are is that new crop of members of Congress, uh, what do they want to see in surface transportation policy uh and in surface transportation funding. Uh, but it's interesting because to some extent, the federal highway program especially is a little different than a lot of other federal funded programs, federally funded programs. It is a federally funded but state-administered program. The vast majority of the federal highway funding goes to the states by formula. And that's a little bit unique when you look at other federal programs. So this piece of legislation that Congress considers every five or six years provides the platform for how state DOTs are going to receive their funding over that time period. And the great thing about that is because it's a formula-based approach, and because states are able to take those formula dollars and select the projects that they want to move forward with, as opposed to the federal government telling them which projects to move forward with, um, states can kind of map out for five or six years what projects they want to move forward with. And that predictability really helps them put together a pretty efficient plan for delivering projects in that states, in those states that are going to utilize federal dollars.

Trust Fund Myths And The Gas Tax

Jeff Cranson 9:04

Yeah, you would hope that anybody, any lawmaker who likes to say that government should operate like a business would understand that certainty is what businesses need. So it's what a state DOT needs just as well. Talk a little bit about whether you still hear from lawmakers, because we do at the state level frequently about the myth that is uh, you know, donor states. Um there haven't really been any donor states in a long time since the highway trust fund has had to be propped up by general fund. Does that still come up? Do you hear that conversation once in a while?

Jim Tymon 9:34

It comes up every once in a while. Uh it's, you know, we have been spending more from the Federal Highway Trust Fund than we're bringing in in revenue uh for over 20 years now, really. We started in the early 2000s uh to spend more, send more money out to the states than we bring in in tax revenue uh back in the you know 20 years ago. And that's continued uh since then. And mainly that's because we haven't increased the federal gas tax for you know 35 plus years. So uh that is why we have that imbalance. Um and as a result, as you mentioned, I'm not sure if there are any states now that are contributing more to the trust fund than they're getting back in formula dollars. So that is that used to be, I think, a top-tier issue that was uh dealt with in reauthorization every year, making sure that every state got back at least a certain percentage of their contributions to the federal highway trust fund. Uh, but that doesn't seem to be as top-tier an issue recently because we're using so much money from the general fund, general tax revenue that goes to the federal government to prop up the highway trust fund. And um, and that just hasn't been as much of a debate in Congress as it was, say, you know, in the 90s and the early 2000s.

Jeff Cranson 10:57

Yeah, we've done a lot of education on that in in Michigan as well. But when you talked about transportation being different than other federally funded programs, um another key difference is the user fee model, right? That that's traditionally how we funded transportation going back more than 100 years in in the country. And uh I do you find that's part of your education process with lawmakers back when you were a staffer, I guess, and continuing until now?

Jim Tymon 11:24

Yeah, uh it definitely was. Um, but now we have to point out the fact that it back in the in the 90s and again, even early 2000s, it was almost entirely funded by user fees, right? There was very little general fund uh contributions to, especially on the highway side. But now that we are spending so much more each year on the federal highway program than we're bringing in in revenue, there's a lot more general fund dollars that are working their way in. But this idea that uh, you know, the vast majority of the revenue that's put towards federal highway programs comes from the users that are using the system uh is relatively unique uh at the federal level. So we use the gas tax as kind of a proxy for use of the highway system. Every time you go to the pump and you fill up your tank, you're paying 18.4 cents a gallon uh into the highway trust fund. And that is essentially our way of saying that if you're driving and using gasoline or diesel, you're gonna pay into the system, and then we're gonna give that revenue that we collect at the federal level back to the states to invest in that system so that you're able to have quality roads and bridges to be able to drive on.

Jeff Cranson 12:45

And that 18.4 cents dates to what is it, 94, 1994, 1999?

Jim Tymon 12:49

94, 93, back then, yeah, early 1990s.

Jeff Cranson 12:52

Yeah, what else costs the same now that it did in 1994?

Jim Tymon 12:56

Absolutely nothing. Uh it is it when you start to look at some of uh if you look at like a basket of goods and what it cost in 1994 and now compare it to what it costs now. I mean, you're looking at some of those products could be two, three hundred percent higher than what it was back then. Think about college tuition, right? And what what it cost back in the early 1990s versus what it would cost now. I mean, that's some of some of the comparisons are just shocking.

Reimagining The Interstate At 70

Jeff Cranson 13:26

Yeah, that's an excellent example, actually. That brings me to um this this initiative, uh reimagining the interstates. Um and I know you can't be too prescriptive because the whole idea of doing requests for proposals from the states is to see what's out there, and every state is different. But I guess, you know, high-level best case scenario, what do you think could come out of this?

Jim Tymon 13:48

Well, I think it's a great opportunity. You know, we're celebrating the 70th anniversary of the interstate. Uh, you know, I remember going back 20 years ago when we were celebrating the 50th anniversary. AASHTO played a pretty big role there in uh in really going around to as many states as possible uh to be able to highlight the importance of the interstate system when it turned 50. And this is another opportunity for us to really look back at the interstate system, the history of it, and the impacts that it's had on the country as a whole, both economically as well as socially, and how it's really improved our society and how it has improved quality of life in general for so many people across the country. So uh it's a great opportunity for us to celebrate the history of it, to recognize some of the challenges also that it has brought us, but also to be able to look ahead and figure out what is the future of the interstate system for us. And this initiative that was announced uh last week by USDOT gives us that opportunity to be able to think about what do we want the future of the interstate system to be.

Jeff Cranson 15:02

Yeah, so I think um what interests me about that most is the history of how we got it. A lot of people know that it was done during President Eisenhower's term, um, but what a lot of people don't know is that Senator Al Gore Sr. of Tennessee um actually, you know, carried that for President Eisenhower. And one of the things I've read a lot about this and interests me that one of the reasons uh uh then Senator Gore was so interested in it was because he traveled through West Virginia, um, what they called then the notorious suicide alley turnpike with sharp turn exits. And his bill um specified that he wanted cloverleaf exits and entrances. And I think that laid the groundwork for what we know now is a much safer way to travel by vehicle when you think about two-lane roads versus freeways, right? And separations and mediums and all those things. So I guess talk about how important that is, the the safety component of the interstate.

Jim Tymon 16:02

Well, I think, look, you go back to the Eisenhower example, right? I mean, it was, you know, when Eisenhower was making that, taking that convoy really of military uh uh vehicles across the country and the fact that there really wasn't an interconnected system of roads for them to be able to go across the country, there was clearly a need at that point. And I think at that point it was more about efficiency, right? How can we map out the best routes for us to get to point A to point B? But you bring up a great point in that uh the safety aspect of what an interstate system has provided for us from a traveling public standpoint, you have a certain set of standards that are utilized whenever a section of the interstate is constructed, whenever it was it's planned and designed and constructed. And part of that set of standards, there are safety components to make sure that it's done in a way that it can accommodate uh the vehicles in a way that they can operate as safely as possible. And uh that's an extremely uh important part of the interstate system's legacy is that it has provided a safer platform for people to be able to travel over the last 70 plus years.

Jeff Cranson 17:21

Well, it's it's changed everything about our lives. I mean, everything we do, really. Yeah. Every commit to work, vacation, um, take kids to Saka, whatever.

Jim Tymon 17:31

Absolutely. So And this is and look, as we as we look forward, right, there's there's an opportunity to look at uh as we talk about the future of the interstate, it's there are ways to improve it as well, you know, and and uh certainly on the safety side, none of us are happy with the number of of fatalities and injuries that we see on our nation's highway system. What can we do as part of the reimagining the interstate to make it safer? Uh, how can we look at the way the interstate system was laid out 50 plus years ago, 70 years ago, uh, to make sure that we aren't uh having negative impacts on communities so that we can make sure that people are benefiting from it as opposed to being adversely impacted by the interstate system? How can we better incorporate technology into our interstate system to make sure that we're operating it safely and more efficiently? So I think that uh there's a lot of opportunities for us to take a look at the interstate system as a whole and figure out you know, how can we reimagine it in a way uh that will benefit all Americans moving forward.

Digital Corridors And Smarter Highways

Jeff Cranson 18:46

Do you see that dovetailing with uh more advancement with automated vehicles and vehicle to vehicle and V2X uh communication? So obviously, as the vehicles get smarter, the roads can also get smarter.

Jim Tymon 19:00

Absolutely. So uh technology in general, I think, is gonna help us uh operate the system in a more safe and efficient way, uh, making sure that the entire highway network, but especially the interstate system, is ready for uh automated vehicles, autonomous vehicles, both passenger vehicles and commercial vehicles, uh, but also making sure just that there is the a connection uh from a technology standpoint throughout the interstate system and the and the states in general. Uh, we're working on an initiative right now uh to make sure that there is kind of a digital linkage on the interstate system so that uh the technology exists to connect digitally the interstate systems from state to state. Uh we want to make sure, for example, on the work zone side, that if you're you have an interstate trip planned and you're gonna be driving, say, from Michigan to Florida, you're able to know from a work zone standpoint, like where are the choke points gonna be for you as you make that trip on the interstate. Uh and we're working with states across the country to make sure that they're able to exchange digitally the work zone information that will help the traveling public better navigate a trip like that.

Jeff Cranson 20:23

Yeah, I think that's that's a great idea. I think if you could get every driver thinking like a commercial driver, basically, like here's where I'm going, here's how I need to plan ahead. Um, and then you're not as frustrated, right? You don't come up on something all of a sudden, and then when you're frustrated, you take chances and you do things that you shouldn't do, and that's what causes crashes. So I think you're I think that's a really excellent point. Absolutely.

Jim Tymon 20:47

Yeah, I mean, and that that work zone initiative really is part of a bigger, uh, a larger initiative that we're working with USDOT on. It's uh USDOT and ITS America and AASHTO working on a on what we're calling the Digital Corridors Coalition. So it's an opportunity for us to identify corridors across the country where we can make sure that we're building out kind of the technological aspects uh for transportation so that they can operate safer and and more efficiently.

Work Zones And The Safety Imperative

Jeff Cranson 21:21

Stay with us. We'll have more on the other side of this important message.

MDOT Message 21:30

Even with the best planning, backups and traffic congestion can occur during road construction. This can pose hazardous situations for both motorists and construction workers, particularly when drivers are distracted. Motorists are more likely than workers to be killed or injured in work zone related incidents. Additionally, the leading causes of all work zone related crashes are distracted driving and speeding. So it's crucial to do your part in ensuring the safety of both drivers and focusing on your. Most important task, safe driving. Slow down and stay focused.

Jeff Cranson 22:07

Did you get the feeling? Um, I mean, I know it's always kind of paramount, so you almost just expect that it's the first line of any news release related to this, but in that discussion about the initiative last week, that you know, that safety was going to be a big part of most of the proposals?

Jim Tymon 22:25

I think it is. I think it's you look, it's it's the number one priority for for I think everybody that works in transportation. Uh, you know, I think that it was a big wake-up call to see the spike in in highway related or highway fatalities uh around COVID. And I think that while we've seen that number really come down over the last couple of years, it's not coming down fast enough and it's not to where it needs to be. And uh so I think any transportation initiative that we have out there is gonna have a core focus on safety. And uh so I have to assume that this initiative to reimagine the interstate system is going to look at how we can make sure that it's operates as as safely as possible. Uh again, I go back to the technology aspect of it. We all want to get down to zero highway fatalities, right? Uh the only way we're going to do that is to leverage the technology that we have today and the technology that we're going to have tomorrow. Uh so we have to make sure that we're open to incorporating that technology into our vehicles and into the actual infrastructure in order to make it as safe as possible.

Jeff Cranson 23:35

And the Michigan State Police would say exactly that that uh while speeds came back down somewhat after the pandemic and crash deaths came down somewhat, they didn't return quite to where they were, especially speeds. Um naturally there's more cars on the road again, so that that made a difference. But a lot of people who who uh started you know driving pretty recklessly during the pandemic kind of kept doing it. It created a habit. So that's that's a real concern. Well, Jim, thanks. I'll be interested to uh to check back in with you and some of the folks at AASHTO and some of the other states that are involved in this initiative and see how it's going. Is there anything else you wanted to say about it?

Jim Tymon 24:15

No, I mean I look we're looking forward to uh to what this produces

Finish The Map And Fix What’s Old

Jim Tymon 24:19

here. Uh we're gonna work closely with our members to make sure that they are um gonna be suggesting or providing their suggestions for what the future of the interstate should really look like. Uh I think it's important also for us to remember that look, as as the country has grown over the last 70 years, uh the interstate system has evolved with it. And there certainly are parts of the country that aren't as maybe well served by the interstate system as um as the original layout uh kind of indicated. So when you look at kind of the western half of the country, uh or even in parts of the Midwest, you know, there the interstate system isn't finished yet. There are still routes, I think, that can be identified that are really crucial to be able to kind of serve the economy of the United States and to make sure that we're reflecting kind of the changing population patterns too, right? Uh when the interstate system started 70 years ago, you know, there wasn't a whole lot of development out west and then the southwest specifically. Um, and now that you see some of those population shifts to different parts of the country, we want to make sure that there are a robust transportation system to be able to serve the residents that are living there and really to make sure that the economy can thrive throughout the country. And the interstate system is a big part of that.

Jeff Cranson 25:45

Yeah, and that goes to some of the challenges that we have in a state like Michigan where we've been chronically underfooted for a long time, and we're always having that discussion with you know various governors and legislators about funding. And it's easier to convince them to fund something if you're building something new than rather than just maintaining what you have. And that's uh I'm sure that's not we're not alone in that.

Jim Tymon 26:10

But uh Yeah, I mean we I think we have to we have to think about that too, right? I mean, the fact that anything that you have that's 70 years old, 50 years old, you gotta you gotta invest in maintaining it too. And at this point, probably reconstructing major parts of it. You know, you got to start from the foundation back up to reconstruct part of these segments of the interstate that were really part of the original uh interstate map. And uh, and that's an important reminder for us because people get excited about new construction. Great, we're gonna build this new highway, we're gonna build this new bridge, we're gonna build this new transit system. You also gotta maintain what you have, and that really needs to be the top priority. And uh people don't get as excited about that.

Jeff Cranson 26:51

No, and I I think that the way that we can sell that and help get people excited about that is by saying that when we do that, there are also things that will make it safer and more efficient. So that's what we

Thanks, Credits, And Where To Listen

Jeff Cranson 27:03

try to focus on. So thanks again, Jim. I really appreciate you taking time to do this. I know uh I know you got a lot going on in DC, so thank you.

Jim Tymon 27:11

Great, thank you Jeff.

Jeff Cranson 27:12

I'd like to thank you once more for tuning in to Talking Michigan Transportation. You can find show notes and more on Apple Podcasts or Buzz Sprout. I also want to acknowledge the talented people who help make this a reality each week, starting with Randy Debler, who skillfully edits the audio, Jesse Ball, who poops the content, and Jacke Salinas, who posts the podcast to various platforms, and transcribes the audio to make it accessible to all.